TECH TAKES
TECH TAKES
Electrifying Ontario: TTC's Journey to a Zero-Emission Bus Fleet
In this episode of the Tech Takes, guest host Julia Farner dives into the exciting world of fleet electrification with experts Pablo Fernandez from the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) and Mike Skrzynski from Power On.
As mass transit shifts towards electric vehicles (EVs) to meet global climate goals, we explore the technological advancements, government policies, and the urgent need for sustainable transportation solutions in Ontario.
Whether you’re a seasoned professional in the engineering and applied science field or just curious about the future of transportation, this episode is packed with valuable insights and engaging discussions.
Have a topic you’d like to discuss or comments about the episode? Reach us at techtakes@oacett.org.
TECH TAKES PODCAST – EPISODE 11
DAVID TERLIZZI: 00:00.40 - 00:47.63
Tech Takes Podcast is brought to you by Niagara College's Walker Advanced Manufacturing Innovation Center. From day-to-day support in our quality department to long-range new product plans, WAMIC is your competitive advantage. Learn more at ncinnovation.ca slash WAMIC. That's ncinnovation.ca slash W-A-M-I-C. This is Tech Takes, a podcast that explores the many facets of the engineering and applied science profession. It is brought to you by OACETT, the Ontario Association of Certified Engineering Technicians and Technologists.
JULIA FARNER: 00:48.73 - 02:26.97
Hello everyone, I'm Julia Farner and I'm OACETT's Marketing and Communications Manager and your guest host for today's Tech Takes podcast, where we will be zeroing in on fleet electrification. Now, I have some big shoes to fill as your usual podcast host, Louis Savard, is not in, and he is a bit of a legend. So let me get into it. Mass transit is shifting to electric vehicles, or as we like to call them, EVs, to meet global climate goals. As EV technology improves and gains momentum. In Ontario, fleet electrification is growing, driven by government policies and efforts to cut greenhouse gas emissions. The province is expanding its EV charging network, installing Level 2 and DC fast chargers in key locations and modernizing the electricity grid to support the transition. The Toronto Transit Commission, or TTC as most of us refer to them, plans to have a fully electric bus fleet by 2040 with support from PowerON, an organization helping municipalities electrify large fleets. Pablo Fernandez from the TTC and Mike Skrzynski from PowerON join us today to discuss this major effort. Pablo has been with the TTC for 20 years, focusing on technical training, while Mike has worked on fleet electrification and renewable energy projects since 2013. Pablo and Mike, welcome to Tech Takes. And all this talk, as we know, reminds us of a song by Eddie Grant called Electric Avenue. So for those of you who are old enough to know this song, and you know what I'm talking about, those who not, please Google it. It's a great song. Maybe something we could add in at the end of this podcast.
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 02:27.71 - 02:29.95
I definitely know what's on. Yeah.
JULIA FARNER: 02:29.95 - 02:50.31
Oh, yeah. Same thing. Yeah. I think we're all in that boat. So let's start off with our questions. And this will be for both of you, but I'm going to direct it first at you, Pablo. Bit of fun. If you had to describe mass transit electrification in one word, what would it be? And remember, you have to keep it clean because this is a family podcast.
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 02:50.92 - 03:11.80
Absolutely. I will choose impactful because it impactfully reduces carbon emissions, improves public health through cleaner air, and promotes energy sustainability. So it impactfully leaves a lasting positive effect on cities and the environment. Absolutely.
JULIA FARNER: 03:11.80 - 03:14.64
That's excellent. And Mike, if you would like to chime in as well.
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 03:15.67 - 03:40.22
Since this is the fun segment, I'm going to say it's like a sausage because of course the end result is very nice. You have electric vehicles and buses going everywhere and they're running smoothly. But of course, as we'll get into, it's quite complex and there's a lot of moving elements to make sure that the buses are not only deployed, but also working well.
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 03:40.22 - 03:41.56
Absolutely. I agree with that too.
JULIA FARNER: 03:42.54 - 04:02.52
Very good. Well, yeah, so sort of like an impactful sausage, as we mentioned. Bringing both together. But yeah, but definitely some interesting analogies. So, Mike, why don't you tell me, why is mass transit shifting to fleet electrification now? And is there a sense of urgency?
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 04:03.99 - 05:02.46
Yeah, I think, I think like basically the technology is at the point where it's possible, but the urgency is really driven from, you know, cities and municipalities and governments declaring climate emergencies. And these are no longer far off things. I mean, in the city of Toronto in the last, I want to say 10 years, we've had two 100-year storms that have caused flooding throughout the city. So we're feeling the impact of climate change today and the need to reduce the emissions of transport in all sectors, frankly, is just growing. And then, of course, you know, the immediate term health impacts, right? As you're walking down the street, as cities get more people and as you know, you get more congestion, more people are taking active transport, using active means of getting around. You can smell diesel bus exhausts. And so I think the health impact as well are driving that urgency.
JULIA FARNER: 05:02.46 - 05:05.10
Absolutely. And Pablo, what do you think?
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 05:06.37 - 06:02.97
Yes, absolutely. So I agree 100% with what Mike is saying. So technological advancement for sure. So improvement in battery technology have allowed us to expand the technology to mass transit, right? So we started with smaller vehicles, now it's possible due to the technological advancement. And obviously, climate change and emissions, as Mike says, right, mass transit and transportation are one of the largest contributors to greenhouse gas emissions, so particularly carbon dioxide, which is driving climate change. So electric buses and trains produce zero tailpipe emissions, so helping reduce air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions. Also, operational cost savings. The upfront cost is high on EVs, but obviously have a lower operating and maintenance cost due to fewer moving parts and lower fuse calls.
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 06:03.96 - 06:19.80
And if I may, I'd say the user experience as well of the electric bus is quite fantastic. It's quite something when you get on one of those, one of those buses, and it's absolutely silent. There's no vibrations. It's very pleasant, I must say.
JULIA FARNER: 06:19.80 - 06:45.46
Oh, it's definitely a smooth ride, comparatively. So then, Pablo, back to you. When a transit organization makes the decision to go green with their fleet, you need a clear vision. In North America, some transit systems have gone totally green. Some have gone with a mixed green approach and others are testing out hydrogen. Why is the TTC planning to go fully electric?
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 06:48.35 - 08:01.85
In our organization, the decision became clear as with our approach, right? So TTC established an organization-wide program of innovation and sustainability. So innovation is one of the key principles that inform everything that we do at TTC. So this goes beyond modernization of our fleet and has a much broader goal of mitigating risk to our corporate priorities and maximizing all the benefit of investment in public transit. So the program includes three elements, as I say, innovation, sustainability, and a focus on fostering a culture that drives these priorities. In 2017, the City of Toronto approved the TransformTO Climate Action Plan to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 80% by 2050, and we're ahead of that. In November 2017, the TTC Board approved the Staff Green Bus Technology Plan, an associated target for procurement of only zero-emission buses starting in 2025, which we are ahead, again, as I said, and have a zero-emission bus fleet by 2040. I have to mention that by 2020, the TTC already had the biggest EV bus fleet in North America.
JULIA FARNER: 08:01.85 - 08:12.68
Wow, that is very impressive. And then so, Pablo, could you also provide an update on the progress of shifting to electric powered buses and its impact on reducing emissions?
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 08:14.11 - 09:48.33
Absolutely. I have to say that, remember, we have also an expanded fleet. We're lucky in Toronto that the TTC has subway, streetcars, and e-buses as well, right? So on average weekdays, so the TTC sees 2.5 million of revenue passengers at transfer fairs, right? So 70% of those customer boards are already on either a zero emission or low emission vehicle. That is the subway, streetcar, or a green bus. Since 2017, we have reduced tailpipe emission by 35%. As I mentioned earlier, by 2020, TTC had the biggest e-bus fleet in North America. The last order of hybrid buses was completed in 2023, and all further vehicle procurement are zero emission from now on. TTC has been receiving e-buses from New Flyer, that is a Canadian manufacturer vendor, since this summer. Nova, another manufacturer from Quebec actually, will be starting receiving buses in February 2025. By May 2025, actually, the TTC will have a total of 400 e-buses. So you're going to like that, Mike. We're going to be riding those electric buses. So the plan is to have half of the fleet actually converted to e-buses by 2029. So that will be 1,100 buses approximately, right? So if we continue at this rate, we're on target to meet the deadline to have a zero emission fleet by 2040.
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 09:48.33 - 09:58.16
Yeah, and I'm looking forward to helping you get there. I think so far, so far, so far, so good, I think.
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 09:58.16 - 10:17.95
I know. Yeah, yeah. We're counting. We're definitely counting. This is only possible, actually, with the expansion of, obviously, the charging infrastructure, increase in power demand that we're going to have is only supported by our partnership with PowerON, absolutely.
JULIA FARNER: 10:17.95 - 10:31.72
Well, that's a good partnership to have. It definitely sounds like you work well together. So Mike, how does PowerON's turnkey services help municipalities with designing and building an electrical vehicle infrastructure? And can you give us some examples?
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 10:32.76 - 12:33.73
Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, since we have the impactful sausage analogy, I mean, it's kind of like the decision of, do you make the sausage by yourself, like get all the ingredients and make it? Or do you just buy it from the store? Or of course, the get it from the store, it's all kind of done, and you know that it's going to be of good quality. But Yeah. I mean, you touched on what we do. We do quite a few things and that's because electrification of a fleet is quite a long process, right? For us, ultimately, I think the big value adds are first, we are a long-term partner. One thing to mention is we are a subsidiary of Ontario Power Generation that's been around for over a century and has a history of safely operating Ontario's critical energy assets reliably, and so we bring that pedigree to operation, right? Second is just aligned incentives. Because we see the end-to-end of the whole process and of course have operational guarantees that we need to meet, whatever we do has to be of that highest quality. And then of course lastly, we are one throat to choke and we simplify. A lot of people think charging is, I have the charger, I have the vehicle, great, I'm done. But then it quickly turns into, okay, wait, I have the charger and I have the vehicle, but now all of a sudden I need to add more chargers. And oh, wait, now I need more power. Now I need battery energy storage. Now I need solar. Now I need all kinds of different assets that each have their own risks associated, a lot of warranties, software and interoperability issues. With the experience we have, because we are that one party, we bring it all together and we make sure that it not only is installed smoothly, but operates smoothly for the long term.
JULIA FARNER: 12:34.48 - 12:36.68
So you're sort of the one stop shop then.
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 12:36.6 - 13:03.309
Exactly. Yeah. And what, you know, I think one way to think about it is we do this day in and day out. Some folks, like, you know, if you hire a single person to manage the electrification program, once they leave, maybe it slows down. And I should say, actually, I think the TTC started on their own first. And then, of course, PowerOn came on to help them out after they got some bumps and bruises there. So very happy about that.
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 13:04.42 - 13:08.04
Yeah, we've seen the results. Absolutely. I agree with that. Yeah.
JULIA FARNER: 13:08.04 - 13:24.12
I think it makes it easier to have a sort of provider that has multiple solutions to the problem. And so then Mike, to that point, what are some of the most promising technologies or projects that PowerON is currently working on to enhance the transition of electric mobility?
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 13:25.05 - 14:59.38
Yeah, I think it's tough, right? Because every project is kind of its own unique beast, right? And even within a single fleet, you don't replace the vehicles all at once. And so every phase kind of becomes different. I mean, some interesting things we're starting to see, right? More people are exploring on route charging options. In the heavy duty space, there's megawatt charging. So instead of a 150 kilowatt fast charger, you have 1000 kilowatts being a push through to a battery. So we're watching that very closely. But I think what's really exciting, right, and really speak to the technological evolution is going back to how PowerON started, we started off looking at how we could electrify OPG's fleet. And at the time, which was like, I think, five, six, seven years ago, we could only do light duty small vehicles. So like the Bolt, maybe even some boats patrolling dams, But now we're actually looking at OPG's entire fleet of vehicles, that's over 1000 vehicles, some of which are, or many of which are heavy duty vehicles, and we're actually looking at how we can electrify those. So that's a really exciting project, of course, next to the TTCs, which is very exciting. And of course, you know, we'll see the fruits of that over over the next several years. But that one, I think, also shows the applications outside of transit as well in the commercial setting.
JULIA FARNER: 14:59.38 - 15:07.53
No, absolutely. And so, Pablo, back to you, what are the benefits of mass transit electrification beyond emissions reductions?
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 15:07.53 - 18:48.58
Oh, several, right. So if I can start with actually Mike’s observation, actually noise reduction, right? And I can give you even some stats that are incredible, right? So e-buses produce 92% less noise compared to conventional buses. Obviously that is with accessories off, right? So if you consider now HVAC and heating and all that, so they're not as quiet, but it's still about 20, 25% less noisy, right? So that's a huge difference. As I mentioned earlier, lower operating costs. They're typically lower fuel and maintenance costs compared to diesel vehicles. Fewer moving parts, absolutely. No need for oil changes or complex fuel systems that reduce long-term maintenance expenses like fuel injectors, hoses, belts, bearings, so none of that or less, a lot less is required. Energy efficiency, obviously electric propulsion systems are more efficient converting a higher percent of energy into motion compared to fossil fuel engines, right? So these lead to less energy waste overall. A diesel propulsion system, just to give you some numbers as well, right? It's 30 to 40% efficient, where electric propulsion has a 70 to 80% efficiency. So you can see there's a huge difference there. Obviously, energy independence and stability, right? So electrification, that's also like mentioned, a reduced reliance on oil, making transit system less vulnerable, vulnerable, sorry, to fluctuations and fuel prices or even geopolitical events, right? That's where we see now with the world. We are expecting also to see longer vehicle lifespan with electric vehicles generally experience less wear and tear. So definitely we see that on, for example, the braking system, because it's used a lot less compared to regular buses. And yeah, that's only a few that I can mention. If I can give you even more stats actually, since 2017 we have avoided the use of 69 million liters of fossil fuel. So that is equivalent to 28 Olympic pools of diesel or gas or fuel. So that is equivalent to 67,000 less gas powered cars on the road. So as you can see that's pretty impressive actually. That’s only to 2017, right? So by, what we project by 2020, 40, by 2040, sorry, we're going to have over a hundred millions of healthcare costs avoided annually, right? Due to cleaner air. That will be also by 2040, 950 millions of fossil, liters of fossil fuel avoided. That is now equivalent to 367 Olympic pool of diesel gas, the size of it. And it will be equivalent to 800,000 fewer gas powered cars that will be on the road. thanks to all the fuel that we have saved. And we're estimating a saving of 190 million of net operating costs. And cumulative actually will reach a much higher number. So we're estimating 550 to 1,100 million operating saving costs. So that's incredible.
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 18:49.38 - 19:01.89
Yeah, I was touring one of the TTC facilities and of course you touched on it there, but Tony was talking about the driver experience too, so that's a pretty big one.
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 19:01.89 - 19:03.34
Absolutely.
JULIA FARNER: 19:03.34 - 19:05.83
Do the drivers prefer to drive the electrical vehicles?
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 19:07.26 - 20:43.82
There was a little bit of a learning curve, training is my line of work. So we train the operators what is called the one pedal operation. So basically use the throttle or the gas pedal only because the moment you let go of the pedal so these buses start to actively regenerating back into the battery, right? So that was a little bit of a learning curve, but with training and multiple Open houses and focus group with the operators is fully endorsed. Obviously, everybody sees the benefit of e-buses, right? But that was quite the difference, right? So you're used to a vehicle to be coasting when you let off the pedal, but now the moment you let off the pedal, actually, the vehicle feels like it starts braking, right? And it makes sense because it's converting that energy back into the battery, right? So another stat, actually, if you allow me, Julia and Mike, actually 40% of the energy used when the vehicle is accelerating is actually its energy that is already converted back from regen braking. So it's only 60% actually use that from the charger, from our PowerON, right? So when the vehicle is stationary, 40% is coming from regenerated braking, actually, that has been safe while the vehicles are braking. That's why the buses are better used in the city environment, right? So not as much when you're highway, as all the technologies are involved, right? When you constantly brake and accelerate, it's actually a good thing.
JULIA FARNER: 20:44.77 - 21:08.98
No, that makes sense. And that you, you certainly, those were excellent statistics to help to illustrate all of those points. So thank you very much, Pablo. So Mike, let's talk about charging something that we've just sort of been discussing and fun. So the question for you is what kind of infrastructure is required to support an electric bus fleet and how do you ensure grid stability?
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 21:08.98 - 22:42.58
Oof. So I'm saying that because there really is no one-size-fits-all answer on what you need to do to support an electric bus fleet. Um, I think one interesting thing and in general, right, is that transit facilities aren't built to accommodate the type of power that's required to charge these buses. In fact, a lot of fleet facilities aren't right. So, you know, for instance, one thing you might need to do is you might need to upgrade the building service. And of course that means checking with, uh, the local hydro company, whether there's upstream, uh, capacity to serve that right. So that's kind of like, okay, how much capacity is available? And do you need to upgrade your switch gear? Right? I think we did that. We're doing that at a lot of the TTC's garages. And then of course, you know, there's all the down, all the there's the charger itself. That's just the thing everyone focuses on. But then you have things like the transformers. You talked about grid stability. When you have a lot of chargers deployed, sometimes you can actually cause distortions to the power quality of the facility, which actually starts causing problems for hydro when you're pulling that much power. And so you need things like harmonic filters, for example, right? All these like little design considerations. Again, it's not one size fits all, but that's why it's so important to really look at the whole picture and be like, okay, what do I need today to make sure I'm set up for success in the long term?
JULIA FARNER: 22:43.83 - 23:06.88
Which, well, that makes sense. All the considerations that probably most people wouldn't even, well, people without that sort of knowledge wouldn't even think about. So Pablo, what are some of the logistical challenges for EV charging? And does the TTC have enough charging stations or how do you manage this since e-buses, like most buses, may make more frequent stops and sometimes have longer routes?
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 23:08.07 - 26:34.78
Yeah, as I say, right? So stopping and that's actually, it's not all that bad, right? So as we get most of that energy back, right? So if I can add to what Mike was also saying, right? So I think the footprint, footprint, sorry, the space actually, now we have to consider where before we were able to park a bus, Right. Only now we need to add space for a charger for every bus that we have. Right. So obviously, hydro substations needed to be installed or upgraded to accommodate the increasing power demand, as Mike said. Obviously, another logistic challenge has been all the amount of training required from personnel, the technicians, right, the people involved, the garage, the four person management, everybody needs to receive training associated with related to the e-buses. Regarding the infrastructure that we currently have, it's probably Mike knows now. So we have charger stations available now for every bus that we have, right? So four garages are equipped with EV chargers. including one with 10, actually 20, soon to be pantographed chargers at Birchbaum Garage. And our fifth, sixth, and seventh garage are in various processes of construction. Our owners are actually aware that they work closely with us. One of the biggest challenges, and for this we were prepared and we're still learning, is scheduling. Scheduling has to be now adapted to this new fleet of e-buses that we have. So typically, and depending on the route, obviously e-buses return to the garage to be charged twice a day. So that makes a huge impact on the way now we have to schedule. a route driver, bus availability, and all that. And as I say, right, so frequent stop, but actually not a total disadvantage, actually quite the opposite, right? So regenerative braking is used to convert the kinetic energy of the bus into electric energy to recharge the batteries, right? So that's something actually that we learn as we need to adapt, believe it or not, the state of charge, right, to a lower level instead of a maximum to allow the buses to regen as they're leaving the garage, right? So if we, originally we were charging the buses at the maximum level, right, so it would not allow for the buses to regenerate, get that energy back into the battery. So we saw actually at the beginning some brakes actually smoking, because it will take as long as 26 kilometers, actually, for the battery to get the discharge. So this is how to tell you how efficient, actually, these buses are. And I already told you about the one pedal operation that we train the drivers, right? As Tony mentioned, Mike, right? So far, it has been a great success and been acknowledged and well received by the operators as well as the public as you were saying as well.
JULIA FARNER: 26:34.78 - 26:44.59
That's good. So then what is the battery then? How does the battery swapping work? How do you change a battery in a large bus?
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 26:44.59 - 29:24.55
The battery is luckily, actually, one of the challenges that we have with eBus is the lack of standardization. So with various vendors that we have, and this is fairly still a new technology, right? So what we see is basically the traditional bus manufacturers, they're now converting or transferring or converting the production lines and the same design that they have for a conventional bus into an electric bus, right? So 400 kilowatt hour is usually on average what the batteries that we have for our fleet. So that's equivalent to five and a half Tesla's to give some perspective. So regarding batteries, everything started with the 1.5 volt cells, right? So that is connecting in series, parallel circuits to create the high voltage of approximately 600 volts. But luckily, the batteries are modular, right? So inside each battery module, the cells are connected in series. As I say, there's no standardization of how these modules are built. Voltage, current, volume, lifting point, connection, casing, everything change with every manufacturer that we have. That's been quite of the challenge that we have. Also the processes, how you do the swapping also change. So we have to be trained and train our technicians on how to do that. Each module is intelligent, actually, which means it has its own computer control sending info regarding the temperature and the voltage level for every cell of that module. So that allows actually to pinpoint specifically what module is the defective one and what's the one to have to be replaced. And that's what we have been doing. Reliability has been really good so far. The battery location actually is usually on the roof, predominantly. That's what we see that the bus manufacturer use the most, and obviously where the engine compartment used to be. Safety training is critical. The commissioning, or lockout, tagout, what we call lotto, is crucial to work safely on these buses. So first, what has to be done is a lockout, tagout, lotto of the bus. and then basically remove all the connections, busbars, coolant lines, control lines, and swap the module. So usually it requires actually two people, minimum two people have to be done for safety reasons, also for where the location of the equipment is located and the weight. But swapping usually takes about four hours, sometimes even less depending on the model.
JULIA FARNER: 29:25.59 - 29:37.14
Well, interesting. It sounds very intricate and definitely very technical. So, Mike, what advancements have been made in battery technology and how do you feel they affect the range and operational reliability?
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 29:38.63 - 31:52.56
Yeah, I think, you know, it's a constantly evolving space. And I think when it comes to electric vehicles, there's almost two elements to that question, right? One is the battery for sure. And in that regard, I think the biggest thing is you're seeing a dramatic decrease in costs and increase in density, kind of like If you're familiar with what happened with solar energy, it used to be very expensive. And then as more got deployed, it got cheaper and cheaper. Like with battery storage, for example, it used to be $1,000 a kilowatt hour. Now it's at $130 a kilowatt hour. That includes a 14% drop last year. So just those costs and the experience of manufacturers to improve the density of batteries, that's going really well. But at the same time, I think the charging aspect of it and the charger reliability of it, like, like, that's a key piece that we're seeing improving over time. Like, for example, when folks talk about range anxiety, in many cases, it's actually charger anxiety, right? Like, many vehicles have many electric vehicles have ranges that are equivalent or even greater than the internal combustion equivalent, like five, 600 kilometers, right? I think electric vehicles could have a range of 1000 kilometers and people would still be worried about the range, but it's because of the charging infrastructure, right? But we're really starting to see a lot of improvements in charger reliability, in the deployment of it. And of course, you know, as we go down the path with TTC and other folks, um, the sort of software solutions as well that improve the reliability of these chargers, um, is increasing. And so, um, our goal is above 95% reliability for operations. So that's kind of what we strive for. Um, of course, there are all the technological solutions, but also, um, you know, self plug, but also having a good partner that kind of is able to maintain those is, is pretty key, especially for critical fleet operations like that.
JULIA FARNER: 31:53.95 - 32:05.81
Absolutely. And then also, Mike, what are the next big technological innovations you see with electric transit? Do you see solid state batteries or hydrogen fuel cells on the horizon or any other technologies?
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 32:07.11 - 33:25.72
Yeah, I mean, I would be curious how a solution like, you know, megawatt charging starts coming into play with transit. I mean, with the charges that we have now, it seems to be going pretty well. But again, that's not 100% electrification. As you start going for longer routes or, you know, require lower downtime, that's where the kind of charging technology, I think, the speed at which vehicles are getting charged is a big hurdle, not only for, I think, for mass electric vehicle adoption in general, right? And then there's also, you know, the concept of wireless charging, where it does unlock possibilities for things like charging on route and things like that. And then hydrogen isn't something PowerOn is as familiar with, but certainly for the very long haul applications, now we're talking more about commercial trucking, I think there's definitely a part to play there. At the end of the day, I think decarbonization isn't going to, it's not a, there's no one silver bullet that can solve everything. It's going to be a combination of technologies. And I think it's interesting from the vantage point of a program manager that an integrator that we see these evolutions play out over time.
JULIA FARNER: 33:25.72 - 33:36.31
Absolutely. And of course, there's so many different applications for electricity. And so, Mike, do you feel overall there is enough electricity in the province to support fleet electrification?
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 33:38.66 - 35:25.94
I think this topic could be a podcast all on its own. But I actually, I spoke about this on a LinkedIn post recently. And, you know, I think if you're asking whether there's enough electricity today to support the ambitions of electric, to support the electrification ambition of 2035 and beyond, then absolutely not. There's not enough electricity. But then why would there be, right? Will there be? Absolutely there will be. But I think the big thing is, you know, the way generation gets constructed, and the way power gets constructed, right? Like, you have to think of, like, imagine the public outcry if all of a sudden, you know, we had all these extra generators sitting around doing nothing because of the future potential electric demand to 2050. I mean, people would be, like, it would be a pretty upsetting situation, right? I do think it's interesting that the conversation has kind of shifted from a few years ago we were saying, the conversation was, oh my goodness, look at all this extra power we're sending to the U.S. at a loss. So we did have too much. And that was a problem. But now the conversation shifts to, oh my goodness, will we have enough? And then, of course, the obligatory OPG plug. Of course, there will be enough clean energy, I should say, to support the transition to fully electric fleet. So is there enough today? No, but there will be. There absolutely will be. And progress is being made on all fronts.
JULIA FARNER: 35:25.94 - 35:44.37
Well, that's good to hear. I'm sure most people will sort of take some sort of comfort in that. So to that point then, Pablo, have your electric buses been performing well in the Canadian climate? Because we know that in the wintertime, it can get very cold. And in the summertime, also, we have heatwaves as well, where AC is required.
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 35:45.44 - 36:53.06
Yeah, it's actually surprisingly no major issues or surprises with the cold weather. As you probably guessed, right, so electric heat has the biggest impact on energy consumption, right? So using electric heat doubles energy consumption. So in fact, reduce the range to half, unfortunately, right? So which we could tell our customers, you know, since we have e-buses, so now we're not going to have heaters on the buses. So imagine how is that going to go, right? So TTC has mitigated this risk by using a diesel fire heater to supplement electric heating. So we have no choice but to do that. That's only done in extreme weather, cold weather. The temperature of the batteries are strictly controlled by the computers on board, so that's really not an issue. It's just actually the biggest problem is to maintain comfort actually inside the passenger compartment. But other than that, no major issues at all.
JULIA FARNER: 36:54.63 - 37:10.58
That's excellent. And so this is a question for both of you. I'm going to start with Pablo. What's the biggest curveball you didn't see in the journey to mass transit electrification? And what is the most surprising aspect of bus electrification that you've learned about thus far?
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 37:10.58 - 40:32.71
Oh, that's interesting. I think we all agree actually on what I have in mind. Actually, the biggest curveball actually we survived the 2020s, the 2019, right? So we have an idea of what we're getting into with this e-bus order and electrification, the limited specs actually that we put when we have the funding actually to buy these buses, the competition that we were facing with many transit agencies rushing to procure e-buses that they were getting the funding to. But definitely the biggest curveball was a global pandemic, I have to say. We never saw that coming. So that compounded issues with vendor availability, with parts availability, production was a place on hold. Transitioning personal to this new technology was already challenging. Imagine receiving the news that you have an instructor, special subject matter expert instructor coming from overseas to deliver a critical safety training that you need to maintain these buses. So by receiving the news, the instructor is sick. or is unavailable to travel, or the borders were closed, right? So we have to think outside the box with my team, actually, and the vendors, actually, with this several virtual session that was brand new, actually, for an audience that is usually kinesthetic, actually, they learn by touching, by seeing stuff, actually, we have to adapt. So my technical team actually delivered the practical portion with the aid of this instructor that could have been actually either in Sweden or somewhere in the United States or even in Eastern Canada. So despite that, actually, I think we were able to successfully have the bus delivery, became the biggest, have the largest fleet in North America. We were able to test all these buses. But yeah, definitely, you know, World pandemic so we will never prepare for that. I think one of the most surprising aspects, actually, that's good, actually, is for me, and I could be a little bit biased too on my line of work, actually, is the similarity of the technology on these buses with the current fleet of electric vehicles that we already have with the TTC. So an electric bus is incredibly similar to a subway or a streetcar. The technology inside, actually, and that helps us immensely, right, as we have been dealing with this technology, electric propulsion for a subway for 30 years. So it's very similar to the latest subway that we have for 30 years, the technology that we have on the current buses, believe it or not, as well as the streetcar for the last 10 years with the latest streetcar order that we have. So that was an easier and a pleasant surprise, actually, with this transition to electric buses, that I have to say. Yes. What do you say, Mike? What was the biggest curveball for you?
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 40:33.80 - 42:30.74
Oh, when you're deploying transit, I mean, it, it just kind of like any project, right? There's always some kind of different thing. I think the big thing, especially from a PowerON perspective, right. It's like, you might think that at first glance, a lot of these projects are the same. It's like, Oh, it's electric buses, throw them, throw some chargers and buses in a depot. Um, great. Right. But it's really like, okay, once you know one transit operator and you work with them on one depot, it's, you now know one depot within one transit operator, right? Like there's different ridership, different operational lead, different block lengths, right? Um, there's no one size fits all. And I think this goes for really anything around electrification, the built environment is: every building, every facility, every operation, every, it's like a snowflake. You can't copy paste from, you can't copy paste solutions from one building to another. You can do so with processes, but the suite of technologies and what works for one building, what works for one operator might be completely wrong for another. And I think, you know, that's, that's, that's the challenging thing, right? Um, I mean, I know, you know, I come from a bit of a startup world, right? And everyone's talking about, Oh, okay. Do things that scale, like make it big. Right. The reality with anything infrastructure related is it doesn't really scale. Yes, you can take learnings and experience and apply it to projects, but it's not just copy paste the same solution everywhere. It had there has to be a nuance you with everything. And that's like one saying that I think PowerON learn very early on, and we're still continuing to find surprises to this day. So it's definitely a good fun surprise for us.
JULIA FARNER: 42:32.18 - 42:45.17
Interesting. Now, to your point, though, Pablo, I think the pandemic was something obviously no one anticipated and it changed everything forever, really. Everything. Everything. Yeah.
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 42:45.17 - 42:52.46
The way, I mean, probably we're doing this podcast. I don't know. Probably what we've done before in a studio, right?
JULIA FARNER: 42:52.46 - 43:16.52
Very good point, actually. Yeah, it wouldn't have been virtual. We would have probably been, as you mentioned, in the studio in person. So then another question for both of you and Michael, I'll let you start. Electric fleets are more than e-powered vehicles. It's about safety and investments in vehicles and charging infrastructure. But what are the real challenges in converting a fleet to electric vehicle in terms of maintenance, training and the sort of knowledge required?
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 43:17.86 - 44:56.55
Yeah, I think, and I'll let, you know, Pablo speak to more of the training side. Right. But I, but the change management piece is one of the biggest things to ensure the long-term operational success. Right. I mean, we talked about single foot driving with the regenerative braking, right. I think there's even things like, okay, don't forget to plug the bus in when you're arriving at the depot, right? There's just certain operational nuances, right? Like I've heard heavy duty fleet operators say like, okay, you can't slam on the accelerator or go aggressive on driving because then you eat up the battery quite quickly, right? Yeah, maintenance and reliability are absolutely huge for us. And then on the charger uptime things, I kind of mentioned that one of the things with the TTC is that we have an uptime guarantee. So if we go below a certain threshold, we're actually penalized for it. And like I said, we're kind of one throat to choke on that. And it really goes back to having those aligned incentives with the TTC to make sure that, yes, the infrastructure is delivered on time and everything's working, but also that the fleet, a critical transit fleet, still has the same reliability and uptime as the fleet before electrification. So definitely do not underestimate the change management aspect of it. I'm sure, Pablo, you've been dealing with this a lot, especially with the fleet.
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 44:56.55 - 47:08.27
Absolutely. Training, you know, that's my line of work, right? So it's crucial, as you mentioned, Mike, right? So we're lucky at TTC because we have the volume, right? We have combined when we add subway, streetcar, and buses, right? So we have over 2,000 technicians, right? So that work and maintain the fleet, right? So since we have that large volume, nevermind mention, you know, the amount of operators also that we have. So we have a centralized training center. That's where I work, right? So, and there we review, develop and deliver most of the training required by this fleet of e-buses, right? So it goes from operator training to all levels of maintenance, right? Troubleshooting, and overhaul included, right? So I need to mention actually regarding not only training, but also something that I haven't mentioned is actually the amount of personal protective equipment. That was also a learning curve and the difference between each manufacturer as well, right? So our flash protection, coverall, helmet with face shield, classes are zero, rubber gloves rated 4,000 volts, isolated tools, that's another things that train and make sure that technicians actually are using these tools as they're supposed to. Luckily, as we have a centralized training center, we have been preparing our technicians for some time now. Now we have standardized high-voltage training, standardized lotto training, as well as diagnostics on the various systems present on these buses. But it hasn't been easy, but I think we're in a very good place now, thanks to having a centralized training facility. Now, as the buses and the infrastructure and the chargers are moving from one garage to the other, so we're able to take that training, that infrastructure, sorry, those training programs that we have and now use it and deliver that training to the new facility, right? So that's what we have been doing.
JULIA FARNER: 47:09.55 - 47:22.90
That's good. And so now we're getting close to the final question. So what role does predictive maintenance play in keeping electric bus fleets running smoothly and what technologies are you using? So you could both answer this, but we'll start with you, Pablo.
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 47:24.61 - 49:10.32
So for us, it's not different. So we just have been adapting what we were doing before. Preventative maintenance is crucial. It's not new to TTC, where vehicle reliability has a top priority for us. TTC has strict guidelines in general, as well as mandated by NTO, Ministry of Transportation Ontario. So vehicle systems and components are inspected, tested, or replaced based on various criteria, as you may think, right? Time, hours of service, mileage, etc. That conventional maintenance that we were doing before, like oil change, periodic, has been now replaced with all the inspections that are required for these buses. For example, battery compartment inspection, ensuring that all the connections are secure, the cooling actually, that lines that maintain the batteries cool, which is very important, has to be tested, that they're connected, the integrity, all the high voltage cables that go through the passenger compartment, different areas, right, obviously not exposed to the public, but the cable installation integrity has to be tested every so often, and obviously fault history review, right, so to ensure that there's no issues. So I have to say, these computers are a computer, these buses, sorry, are a computer network where all the systems are communicating to the main computer and are reporting any faults. So as part of also the preventative maintenance, so a PTE or portable testing equipment or laptop is used to review all faults and run diagnostics to ensure that the buses are running properly.
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 49:11.10 - 50:42.16
Yeah, I think it's really interesting, right? Because we're talking a lot about like the computer, like using leveraging like technology to detect issues, right? I think the big thing is that unlike a mechanical system, right, when you're talking about any kind of electric system, you're not like you can't easily see or hear if anything's going on, right? So You need these kinds of sophisticated measurement devices. And obviously, you know, we haven't used the term AI yet in this podcast, which I think is a new record. But I think definitely predictive systems are improving over time, measuring things like, okay, is there a voltage or a harmonic fluctuation in the system that warrants checking out the cabling? Or maybe there's something like, did someone run over a charging cable? That one's a pretty interesting consideration, right? Make sure the charging cables are not run over. That's, I think, more expensive than people realize to replace those things. Um, but yeah, I think it's, it's, it's hugely important, especially when you're dealing with this kind of abstract world of electrical currents and voltages. Although there are, of course, some other things that are more, you know, traditional, I guess, you know, regular preventive maintenance, regular routine checks, just to make sure everything's working properly. But yeah, you absolutely need that. Like reliability again, is king in these types of operating environments.
JULIA FARNER: 50:42.79 - 50:54.79
Absolutely. Absolutely. And so to close off to both of you, and I'll start with you, Pablo, what are your visions for the future of sustainable energy and transportation in Ontario?
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 50:54.79 - 51:46.67
To me, Full electrification. That's my vision. Hopefully, you know, PowerON keep expanding and even competition is good as well. Don't take no offense, right? So a vision of the entire fleet of electric public sector vehicles charging intelligently. So during low demand hours, but also discharging to a certain level to supplement the grid. So there's features actually, especially with newer vehicles, that there's a possibility to do that. And this, even in the private sector, actually, you can even charge your car, your house also, but with the right incentive. Actually, your car could be discharged back into the grid. So I don't know if Mike, you know more about that technology, but that's, full electrification, for sure.
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 51:46.67 - 53:52.73
Yeah, I mean, again, that's another part. That's, I think, the second podcast episode idea that we've come up. But at my old job, I was looking at that kind of vehicle-to-grid technology. And there are some interesting lessons learned. I'll leave it at that. Yeah, I'll leave it at that. But yeah, look, I think I think for sure we're all on board with full electrification. And from my perspective, I think Ontario is a real shot at like becoming a global powerhouse for this and Canada as a whole. And I think, you know, there's always this joke that, oh, yeah, government's like the last to adopt things. But in Canada, transit is leading the way by and large. And of course the TTC is in pole position. Um, and where we are right now, I think even the U S is maybe like five years behind. Right. So I think we've really pushed the envelope on what it, what is possible for electrification. Um, combine that with preconceptions about the cold, like we're really doing something amazing here. Right. And to top it all off, specifically in Ontario, it often goes unmentioned, I think quite sadly, that we are an extremely clean grid. Like Ontario and Quebec, really low emissions, right? Like I'm always shocked when I see things, or not shocked, obviously I applaud efforts to decarbonize, but it's just interesting when I see things like a few months ago, there was an announcement that the UK just banned coal and it was this big thing. And I'm thinking to myself, well, you know, Ontario's Ontario stopped using coal for like almost a decade. Like this is something that we have experience in. So why aren't we leveraging that not only for electrification, but for like, look, this is what it means to have an electrified decarbonized and resilient economy, um, basically to move people and goods. Right. I think we have a legitimate shot at that. We just need to keep moving on this.
JULIA FARNER: 53:53.81 - 53:59.24
Absolutely. And is there any last words from either of you? Anything else you'd like to say?
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 53:59.24 - 55:07.24
Oh, wow. Where to even, yeah, I mean, where to even begin? I think those were kind of like some of the main points. I think, yeah, look, there's no shortage. I think the big thing that we need is just to maintain the ambition that we have, right? I know right now there's also been a lot of talk of the electric vehicle slowdown. That's definitely the elephant in the room and we can address that. But I think what I view it as is growing pains. If you're familiar with like crossing the chasm, right? What we're seeing is that electrification is now at that chasm point where it's crossing from the early adopters and innovators through to the mainstream. And I think as sort of an industry, we just need to collectively push through it, keep doing the good work that we're doing, not get discouraged and we'll get there. Um, it's not going to happen overnight because infrastructure is hard. It's not software, but you know, we, you see what, what's happening with the TTC and the wonderful work they're doing. And I think it's showing that it is possible.
PABLO FERNANDEZ: 55:08.71 - 56:12.43
Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. And we see it actually as we're leading and I'm part of many committees and supporting all the transit agencies. Yes, we are ahead, the TTC. We're blessed actually that we're leading the PAC, but there are many transit agencies, even in North America actually, the United States, that they're following our steps, and they're also involved in heavy investing and electrification. As you said, it's not easy. Actually, it takes a lot of funding, but long-term benefits are just around the corner. It's just a matter of the initial investment, so the saving on fuel. Look at the situation we have right now with the world in Ukraine and how the fuel cost has been affected, right? It will continue with electrification, steady, but leading. All the crisis agencies will follow suit, and even the private sector, right? So it's the right thing to do. There's no choice but to follow it.
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 56:13.91 - 56:33.83
Yeah. And, and like, you know, we've talked about a lot about the environmental benefits, but like you've hit on it many times, Pablo there, there is like, there's a business case for this. Like, like, could you imagine not having to pay for gas ever again? Like how wonderful. Um, and, and we're starting to see that tipping point right now.
JULIA FARNER: 56:34.72 - 56:55.09
But yeah, that would that would be wonderful. I'm sure many people would concur with that, especially when it comes to the cost of goods, because, of course, that always increases the cost of things like food if you're trucking it in. But well, I would like to say thank you to both Paolo and Mike for sharing your insights on fleet electrification. A lot of great discussion in detail. Thanks.
MIKE SKIRZYNSKI: 56:55.09 - 56:56.25
Thank you.
JULIA FARNER: 56:56.22 - 57:32.24
And it's definitely going to change. Well, it is changing what's happening now and will definitely impact what happens in the future. So one thing is for certain, our roads will be dramatically transformed as fleet electrification becomes more widespread. And I look forward to seeing how this transformation impacts our future. Well, it already is, but what are the changes to come? So as always, I want to thank our listeners for joining us. Remember, if you are interested in learning more about today's topic, or if you had a topic you would like us to feature in a future podcast, please email us at TechTakes@Oacett.org. Until next time, bye for now.