Bridging the Gap: Supporting Internationally Educated Professionals in Ontario

In this episode of Tech Takes, host Louis Savard discusses the difficulties that internationally trained professionals face when they immigrate to Canada and the resources available to support them.

It features a round-table conversation with Charline Tyrell, a career and training counsellor for the Accelerating Career Advancement (ACA) program at Achēv, Daniel Liao, the Dean of Applied Science, Technology and Trades at St. Lawrence College, and Pieter Bruwer, C.E.T., an internationally educated professional working in the engineering field. 

Join us as we explore the barriers faced by internationally trained professionals, including financial, language and credential recognition, as well as the challenges of adapting to Canadian culture.

Have a topic you’d like to discuss or comments about the episode? Reach us at techtakes@oacett.org

Transcript

TECH TAKES: Episode 7

Bridging the Gap: Supporting Internationally Educated Professionals in Ontario

NARRATOR: This is TECH TAKES, a podcast that explores the many facets of the engineering and applied science profession. It is brought to you by OACETT, the Ontario Association of Certified Engineering Technicians and Technologists.
 

LOUIS SAVARD: Hi, I'm Louis Savard, and welcome to TECH TAKES . Many people immigrate to Canada to start a new life, broaden their horizons, earn more money, and even seek new opportunities. They come here with the expectation that these hopes and dreams will come true and they'll achieve goals that didn't seem possible in their home country. However, the first few months or even years in a new country can be difficult when there are settlement, language, and employment barriers preventing them from excelling to their full potential. 

Many arrive highly skilled or educated, but have a difficult time landing their first job or jobs in the profession they were trained or educated in back home. Employers often want Canadian experience, Canadian credentials, and solid spoken and written communication skills. All things that can take time when you land in a new country. Thankfully, Canada has a network of supportive resources, systems, and institutions that support newcomers in their quest to obtain gainful employment, amongst many other things. 

In this episode of TECH TAKES , we will explore how St. Lawrence College, one of Ontario's top providers of post-secondary education in the science, engineering, and technology field, and Achieve, one of the largest providers of employment, newcomer, language, youth, women, and inclusion services in the greater Toronto area are supporting immigrants with an engineering background, reach their career goals in a new country. We also have an OACETT member who is an internationally educated professional who shares his experiences in gaining Canadian credentials to work in the engineering field in Canada and finding rewarding employment in his occupation. Joining me today to talk about the IEP journey in Ontario is Charlene Terrell from Achieve, Daniel Liao from St. Lawrence College, and OSF member Peter Brewer, CET. 

Charlene is a career and training counselor with more than 10 years of experience helping individuals from various backgrounds achieve their career goals. Daniel is the Dean of Applied Science, Technology and Trades at St. Lawrence College and is committed to the academic excellence of 38 programs he oversees, 11 of which meet the education requirements for OACETT membership. Peter is a Canadian citizen born in South Africa who has been in Canada since 2017. He has an electrical engineering background and is skilled in design and installation of energy management networks as a system integrator and has experience in field applications and support for automation manufacturing. Peter currently works for Bell Mobility Radio as infrastructure project manager and quality control manager in special projects. 

Charlene, Daniel, Peter, welcome to TECH TAKES . This is a very important topic, so let's get right into it. Now, talking with friends, right? Start trying to wrap your head around a doctor in a country should be a doctor in another country. It's, you know, a cut on a finger is a cut on a finger, but that's not the reality. So starting with Charlene, could you share with us what are some of the typical barriers internationally trained professionals face when they arrive in Canada?

CHARLENE TERRELL: Sure. Thank you, Louis. So definitely when internationally educated professionals arrive within Canada, they have, you know, many different challenges. It could be language barriers, employment barriers, credential recognition, as well as adapting to the Canadian culture. That can also be a barrier as well. Financial hardship, because when you're having to settle your family, yourself, and get acclimated to the Canadian society, there's many things that you need to get done and it costs money. So definitely financial hardship is something that they experience. Going back to language barriers, definitely some countries they don't speak. the official languages of English and French as well. So definitely being able to, to communicate effectively could be a hindrance to them finding employment and making a successful start here within Canada.

LOUIS SAVARD: Thank you for that perspective, Charlene. You mentioned something about culture and I'm going to jump to Daniel to give him, get his two cents on the same question. And I wonder Daniel, if you could also highlight the role of the college in helping that sort of, you know, culture integration or the, you know, them feeling welcomed within the country when it starts really potentially the college level when they're coming in.

DANIEL LIAO: So I think some of the challenges probably revolve around the culture. You know, I think we take for granted that, you know, Canada is a very progressive country and, and that, you know, it itself might be very different than the countries that the, that the Chastity educated professionals are coming from. You know, not to say that, you know, that inherently is a problem. I think, you know, there's still an acclimatization that needs to happen. And, you know, I think we are really well positioned, you know, in the post-secondary sector, colleges, such as St. Lawrence College, to kind of provide that kind of acclimatization experience, you know, getting them into the classroom, right, into that environment, um, which, you know, is one that is first very diverse. Um, it's an inclusive environment, it's equitable, right? And these are, um, these are, you know, principles that will, uh, accompany them, you know, into the workforce, right? That's, um, just you know, a big part of the culture, both academically as well as, you know, in the industry. So that's, you know, one of the challenges, but, you know, we're here to help, right? Our institutions are very well equipped to help the new arrivals in this area.

LOUIS SAVARD: Perfect. And Peter, now, you know, you got Charlene and Daniel that are in the thick of it, you know, on the, you know, the helping the Peters of the world landing into Canada. You know, what was your experience when you first got here?

PETER BREWER: Thank you, Louis. So, yeah, it's, thank you very much, Charlene and Daniel for your input as well. On my level of things, it was a little bit different. As you know, every person coming from a different country, each country has got their own type of personality, their way of doing business, the way of talking to people and understanding other people in the network. You come to Canada and your mentality is either Western, Eastern, Southern, your way of interactions is completely different. To be truly honest, it took me about four years. I was in a very specific environment for four years on my work permit. It was only after I came out of the work permit and I was not bound by that anymore that I changed roles and that's why I'm now in project management and that's where you learn to network better. to get some of your personality back in a way, in a sense, and that promotes self-drive, the ambition comes back, your personality comes back into play. There's a lot of things that internationals go through that is not visible to the eye when you stand on the outside. To a large degree, I would say that drives the pressure in a large point as well. That's one thing that nobody ever tells you. But in the grand scheme of things, as soon as you get brought here or you get into Canada, for argument's sake, for your skills, and if you can get your skills on the same level as when you arrive here, that's where you start promoting, that's how you get somewhere and that's really how you contribute to the country. Ironically enough, that's how you get somewhere financially as well. So yeah, that's in a nutshell what my experience has been.

LOUIS SAVARD: Although, thanks for that. And Charlene, we're going to put you back on a hot seat here. And I have to say, I'm hoping I'm saying it right is ACHIEVE, right? Is the acronym. I'm a big fan of acronyms and I love the ACHIEVE, you know, what it represents. But even if I think about it in French, the way it's written, achieve, basically means that you've arrived, you're finally here, you've accomplished, right? So it's, it's interesting how that could be. So what if you can tell us a little bit about achieve and how your agency specifically helps IEPs enter the workforce?

CHARLENE TERRELL: Louis, so Achieve is a community organization providing many services, such services as newcomer services, employment services, language assessment, youth and women services. And the first step in helping our IEPs enter the Canadian workforce is to essentially start where they are. Although many internationally trained professionals do share common struggles, they are not all the same. At Achieve, we aim to deliver personalized services and avoid the one-size-fits-all framework and mentality. We understand the challenges our clients face in their job search to provide the guidance and support that is unique to their situations. We help our clients enter the Canadian workforce by guiding them through the different stages of job search that they may be in. So for example, some may just be starting their credential evaluation process, while others need guidance with creating a targeted professional marketable tools such as their resumes and cover letters that will get responses. Others may need to know how to conduct an effective job search and navigate their job search strategies. And some are at the interviewing stage and need support with interviewing preparation and practice. So in order for them to be successful, we provide a lot of the guidance and support so that they can enter into their professional choice, their career choice that they prefer. We also provide placement opportunities. We have job retention support, many, many tools to help them be successful within their career.

LOUIS SAVARD: Charlene, I want to pick up on something you mentioned about the job retention bit, because it's something that's, you know, not many people think about and not many people actually do something about. So how is that program being leveraged with Achieve? Do you have, you know, is it people coming in to sort of say, Hey, I need some help here, or do you actually identify people that may be struggling? And that's when you sort of jump in and provide that assistance. And what kind of assistance is this all about?

CHARLENE TERRELL: Sure. So the Accelerating Career Advancement Program with Achieve, it's actually funded by the Government of Canada's Foreign Credential Recognition Program. The program assists internationally trained individuals with accessing a career training microloan of up to $30,000 and free one-on-one career counselling. So eligible internationally trained professionals can use the microloan to invest in themselves and to advance their careers here in Canada. Eligible expenses can include tuition and bridge training fees, examination, membership, and licensing fees, as well as credential evaluation and learning materials such as books, laptops, and living expenses. We also provide information sessions and resources on financial literacy, budgeting, and understanding how to manage finances effectively within Canada. And for the career counseling piece, it allows them to work with a career and training counselor where they will get one-on-one support, personalized career counseling services that are unique to their needs. So for individuals with an engineering technology background, this means they will receive service that is tailored to help them achieve success related to their profession.

LOUIS SAVARD: Yeah, that's fantastic. It's needed. Exactly. So thank you. Thank you for that. Shifting gears just a little bit, just slightly, Daniel, we've heard about Charlene, you know, providing the support to IEPs when they come into Canada, they're entering the workforce. What support mechanisms are there through which she But how is St. Lawrence College positioned to provide additional support in terms of, you know, credentials upgrading or anything of the sorts in terms of the programs and the engineering technology field you might have to offer? How are you positioned to address that need?

DANIEL LIAO: Yeah, so like the Bachelor of Programs that I can think of. Um, that would really ideal be really ideal for, um, internationally educated professionals would be our postgraduate certificates. So, they're two semesters long typically. So they're nice to show her. And I know that, um, the international students that take them typically pay up there. They come in with, um, degrees, sometimes even master’s degrees. Um, they take this program and not only, um, you know, does it give them additional skills, um, allow them to, um, be immersed in the culture, right. Of, uh, Ontario, Canada, and so forth in their future work environments. Um, it allows them to potentially like transition their careers as well. Right. So I think about St. Lawrence college, and the postgraduate certificates that we offer. There's 24 in that list. And for someone who's got like a technology or like engineering background, there's a few that like come to my mind right away that would like to actually accomplish this, like, you know, business analytics, cybersecurity, right? That's a really exciting program that's in my area for folks who might have like a computer engineering background or IT. And then there's a project management. I mean, that's really popular, right? For those who have some, some engineering background and, um, there a lot of project managers, um, do you have that background? Um, a technical or engineering background. So that that's a popular one with, um, with international students, internationally educated professionals with, uh, bit of a technical background. Supply chain management is another one, right? Yeah. And it kind of facilitates a little bit more flexibility and career opportunities right after you finish a program and a user experience design as well. And that could be, again, for someone with, you know, a kick shooter, a kick shooting background. Yeah. So these are like programs that are really well suited, I think, for IEP’s internationally educated professionals.

LOUIS SAVARD: You know what, Daniel, I can actually speak. Sorry, Peter, go right ahead. I saw you want to jump in here.

PETER BREWER: Sorry, Louis, I do have a question and I think it's an elephant in the room question when it comes to our listeners here. A lot of, and I know I went through the same thing where I came through Pearson International Airport and you didn't know any of this. It's surprising actually. Six years after I landed, I now understand how much support there really is for internationally educated professionals. Unfortunately, I didn't have any access to it. I didn't even know it existed. To our listeners, how do they get a hold of a chief? How do they find out about what I need for which position? I know the positions are named differently in Canada. It's just norm. But how do I get started? Where do I get started? I think that's number one question that sits on my head.

CHARLENE TERRELL: I think that's a definitely a good question. And I, and, you know, just thinking about what you said, Peter, I believe that probably we need to do the government's organizations. We need to probably have some more pre-arrival services to help internationally trained people when they are, you know, planning to come to Canada so that they have the information readily available and they can start the process while they are in their home country. so that when they get here, they can hit the ground running to be successful, to get within their preferred career choice and to know exactly where to go. I know that at the airport, we do have our flyers. There's a pre-arrival package there, but there's so much information that as a newcomer, you're trying to decipher. So depending on, that's why it is important for individuals to have access to the information, but also to know where to get that information. So that's definitely imperative to the success of a lot of the newcomers and internationally trained professionals here within Canada. So maybe we could do a better job at you know, connecting with different countries that have relationships with Canadian immigration so that they can put things in place to prepare internationally trained professionals before they come here.

PETER BREWER: Because one of the biggest problems that you have is the timeframe where you decide to fly to, it's called six months after you land in a new country, your brain's mush. There's so much data overload that goes through your brain, it is next level. So if you were to add this to the equation as well, that it makes things really challenging for any immigration, any immigrant coming into the country. Louis, I think you know I'm part of the MESC, the Member Engagement Board, and one of the things I'm currently trying to get is programs like Achieve and other programs, the IEP for argument's sake, I'm trying to get that into some of our immigration platforms like Matrix Visa. There's a few of them around here that helps immigrants get into the country, especially engineering ones. to get them to just the awareness and maybe some traction in terms of awareness on their website about, yes, this is the platform, this is the associations that actually look after professionals like you or me or whatever and how to get started. Because if you can do this six month ahead of time or a year ahead of time, you can get this, you can accelerate professionally because you, During immigration you lose between five and seven years professionally. That's a long time frame that you lose. If you could accelerate that, you can contribute to the country quicker, you can get on your feet faster, you can help your family better. That is something that I feel as, for me, knowing this is a definite must

LOUIS SAVARD: It's a very interesting conversation right now we're having because another thing comes to my mind. There's an organization, I don't know if Charlene, Daniel, or Peter, if you're aware of them, called Talent Beyond Boundaries, and they are specifically targeting engineering professionals outside of Canada. But they do the legwork inside of Canada, right? They find the employer, they find the lodging, they start the paperwork, right? And they find a sponsor and all of that fun stuff. So that whenever the person that comes in, they, they're a leg up. Right. But they're very niche and they're very specialized in one area, you know, of, you know, masters and up kind of thing. Right. So I wonder if there is, you know, other organizations out there that, that have that, you know, in other country footprint. That is that link that you're talking about here with the immigration services inside. And then, you know, an organization like Achieve provides that additional support, you know, to, to sort of compliment the gaps that haven't been identified just yet. So fantastic, fantastic discussion. I just want to look back at Daniel very quickly here. Full disclosure, Daniel, I was part of the initial cohort of professors that delivered the project management course to IEP on the Coral campus. It was a fantastic, fantastic turnout. One of the questions that most of the students would ask is what's next? What is St. Lawrence College doing, you know, in addition to offering these, these graduate certificates, you know, what else are they looking at in the future? So right to you now, you know, how is St. Lawrence College positioning themselves for, for the future? You know, how to assist the IEPs to get into the workforce quickly.

DANIEL LIAO: You know, we have, we have services that are actually very similar to Achieve. And I don't want to steal Charlie's thunder whatsoever, because, you know, it's, it's, it's a small, it's, it's a small part of what we do for the community. But it's very important. You know, it's employment services. You know, there are programs that are funded by Employment Ontario and we work with like organizations like the chief, you know, in Coral, you know, I think like G.I.G. and down. you know, both organizations, uh, you know, resume workshops, um, what we have, you know, is what, what we're able to leverage here at the college, um, that is complimentary to the equivalent services organizations would be the vast database of employers, right? Because, um, our, our students are, um, Many of them blow out on placements. And our faculty members, as a result, are able to kind of amass this massive roll of debt over the years, right, of employers that I can tap into.

LOUIS SAVARD: That's great. Now, I remember, and I'm not going to age myself, but back in the day when I had to apply to college, right, I remember how stressful it was. For me, a Canadian citizen trying to apply to a college, and I'm just coming out of high school, it should have been seamless, but it wasn't. It was quite stressful. I can't imagine how an IEP would feel now wanting to come into a college into another country. So I'm wondering if you can speak down a little bit to What are, what's different between an internationally educated professional and a Canadian student when you come to apply to a college? Is there a difference in credentials you're looking for? Is it, you know, same thing you're looking for? And once, once this IEP is sort of, you know, completed the graduate program or the program itself, do they have a difficult time transitioning out of the college into the workforce?

PETER BREWER: If I can add something to that question, maybe Daniel can answer me as well. I've got a relative that's currently in that exact process. In engineering, it's a little bit of a loaded question. You get your education accredited through a platform called World Education Services, WES. and that places you in a certain environment. The trick is, and this is where I slipped, and I only realized this three years after, is if you come out of like a country of South Africa, your syllabus is X, and you come through, you do your two years field experience, and then you graduate. Here, if I'm on the same level, I'm seen as an advanced certification individual, so you're already one step behind. You don't know that by the time you land here. Now, the moment you land here, I remember talking to Matrix Visa back in the day, the immigration consultants, and I asked them, but if I was to go into the engineering field now, what's my next step? And they told me, no, but you need to do this course and this course and this course. And I told them that I was functioning as a field application engineer on that side. Now you tell me I'm not allowed to function in the same environment anymore. And that created a anxiety that you cannot explain to anybody because as a family member, now you're islanded like badly. And if you get into the networking game way before you immigrate and you get to know the Daniels, the Charline’s and all the platforms that comes with it, that anxiety kind of diminishes. You understand what's needed, the networking that goes into it, talking to the right people, makes the world's difference because you get information on those platforms that you'll never find written anywhere. To give you an idea, I had a question when I landed here. I've been here six years, officially it's 27th of September this year. I got my question answered five weeks ago. And it was by accident. I was sitting in a platform listening to it and I thought to myself, I wish I had this information and I was part of this networking association back then. Because that's the difference between accelerating professionally and struggling for two years, building your network first, getting across all the problems. 

DANIEL LIAO: You know, a lot of the points, it You certainly have a lot of knowledge in this area, Peter. And then, yeah, what you're saying truly are some of the challenges that international students, right, would face. And, you know, back to like Louie's question about, you know, is there a difference between domestic student and international students or international educated professionals, right? I mean, those are kind of like the category of students that I look at with regards to this discussion as well. Because there's international students who are not permanent residents of Canada. They're not Canadian citizens. And yes, they pay international student tuitions. And then you have new immigrants who may be economic immigrants. They're immigrating based on their skills and education. Um, you know, they may be part of a side of skills program and so forth. Um, but they con and Eric permanent residents, um, and they're, they're to us, uh, domestic students. Right. And then you have the true to like the domestic students who are, let's say born and raised here and so forth. And then they were, you know, very similar to, um, let's say myself, right. Let's just use me myself as an example. You know, for me, like when I look at my students, someone who's like an international student versus somebody who is like a recent immigrant but a permanent resident and maybe, you know, internationally educated, You know, that's a very superficial line, right? Between those two groups of students. We are educating them, right? This international student, again, they may have a master's degree even from their home country, but they come here on international student, they have a, you know, a study permit. So, I mean, at the end of the day, it makes for a very interesting classroom. It makes for very interesting demographics in our programs. And our student body, you know, is very rich of the results of this. And, you know, in terms of the application process, both the international student, as well as those that have arrived with a permanent residence status, they still need to have their credential validated, right? So, WS is one that you mentioned, Peter. There's a lot of them in the past, right? I mean, both of those are accepted, right? And, you know, those are required for meeting the minimum requirements to being the postgraduate specific programs I previously mentioned. So that's, you know, what I think someone who is international, right? Either they're a new immigrants or truly international students should know, you know, slightly different than domestic students. A domestic student, they still need to have, you know, depending on the program, kind of minimum requirements, right? And then, you know, in terms of transition, the second part of your question, uh, will be like, you know, yes and no, like some, some students transition better than others. I would say, um, you know, our international students, like, you know, Peter, you, you coming from, um, a country where, you know, English is the official language and it's official, it's a language of business, right? So someone who has worked, um, you know, in a country, and has that privilege will do better than others, right? And that's just, you know, my own, my own experience. Um, they're both, and you hit on, you know, networking, right? So those that have networks, um, will, will tend to do better as well. So that's something that we try to impart on them. It's, um, very important to, to, to network. And one of the best ways to network is what's your classmates, right? Again, you're talking about this like very diverse, um, classroom, right? With, uh, Um, just people from a variety of backgrounds, like someone taking project management, they could be coming from a background that could be finance. It could be, uh, it could be, you know, manufacturing and, and, and, and this is, um, just a awesome playground for, uh, for, for networking and, uh, people will, uh, help each other out over time. Right. But it is. a challenge, right? I'd be remiss to say that you come out of a program and that job is waiting for you, that true job is waiting for you, right? Sometimes you have to maybe take compromises with the starting position that you have, but maybe it's the organization that you, that really appeals to you, right? And again, you know, I'd go back to like the employers that we have really good relationships Um, and we, we have good relationships with them because, you know, we know these are good employers. Right. And I personally, you know, would invest more of my energy and time in relationships with employers. I know, you know, they treat their employees well when a graduate of ours sold there, um, you know, they, they, they, uh, they enjoy the work culture

LOUIS SAVARD: All right. I'm a double, I'm a double alumni from St. Lawrence college. And I know that there's, you know, I, I get my alumni letters often enough and the people still reach out. Right. So I know that it's, it's also a family, uh, when you come out, when you come out of St. Lawrence. So I'm glad to hear that it's still the way it was, uh, again, trying not to age myself here. Um, so we've heard, uh, you know, we've heard financial, we've heard culture, we've heard language and we've heard, you know, equivalency of credentials as a, you know, some kind of shocks to the system. Uh, when IEP comes into, you know, to Canada to jump into the educational system, is there anything else, Daniel, that, that you can think of that would pose an academic challenge to an IEP?

DANIEL LIAO: Yeah, I have lights. IEP kind of stuck in my brain and I try not to even call them IEPs. In the education world, IEP actually refers to individual education plan, you know, accommodations. But, you know, that speaking of IEPs, I mean, that, you know, in that context, that could be potentially one of the issues. But, you know, again, I think we're very well equipped to to assist learners of all types, right? We try to have curriculum that's universal, right? There's a classic universal design for learning that, you know, makes it appealing or makes it able for all learners to access the learning material. But, you know, normally our international students who take post-graduation certificates, they tend to fare very well. I mean, these are, you know, these are individuals who have previous experience in post-secondary institution, the unselected programs, you know, maybe in a different language, right. But, you know, they have quite often good learning happens. Right. So, um, so usually, you know, the program, um, is, is not the issue, right. Like getting through the two semesters. Um, but, but definitely, you know, that is the beginning, right. Like, you know, we, we try to help them transition onto the next phase, their careers, right. Once, once they finish the program or as they are the completion go forward.

LOUIS SAVARD: Right. Right. Equally as important. Right. So, um, perfect. Now we, we spent a fair bit of time on, you know, the supports and the educational bits and, you know, Peter mentioned, uh, you know, very briefly about the, uh, the system shock and sort of the mind meld that happens to you when you land in your country and you're going, Oh my God, I'm really here. And what now? Um, So Peter, I wonder if you could tell us about your, your navigation of that landscape, right? You're landed, you're in Canada now, it's 2017. What does Peter do?

PETER BREWER: I had a closed work permit to a company and I wasn't able to move from that position or that company for a term of, I think it was two years, two, three years. So depending on your immigration status, that depends on whether you are bound to a company and a role or a company and at their discretion, the role inflicted. That's the right words I'll use. Now, the moment you get out of your work permit, you can apply to other companies or other positions or whatever the case may be, depending on your immigration status at the time. The trick to it is, and this comes back to Charlene and Daniel's kinds of the world's What is your position or what does your professional background look like? I came out of automation. I worked for an automation company and I had a lot of technical background. I'm a very big techie person in the back end. The last thing I did, the only thing I didn't do actually was to accredit my Uniso project management certification. I thought that it wasn't something I was practicing at the time. I was in projects for many years. I didn't have any use for it because in South Africa, if you're in field service engineering, you're sorted. When you come to Canada, you're not allowed to be trading under the word engineer unless you're certified by the PEO. So that went out the window day one. And that had me fight for a different environment. I eventually, after four years, changed careers completely. Long story short, I just found it more lucrative to go back into projects. use my engineering and my technical backgrounds and sell that better. I was better at projects and special applications than I was at sitting behind a desk answering emails every day. The Canadian industry is very regulated. There's a lot of licensing expectations and certifications that comes along with it. So if you can navigate what you have or If you can take a tally of what you have, you look at what you are open to do, and you can navigate where that will land you. That's the tricky part. I struggled for a long time. Ironically enough, I ended up in OACETT because my colleague that was working with me at the time was a greenie. He came out of, I think, McMaster. And I told him about my struggles and he told me, but why don't you get accredited through OACETT? And I went to their website and I got accredited eventually after a long Long story, but I got my CET after my technology report and ironically enough, the moment I got into the networking side at OACETT, the door started opening for me. Because now you're talking to the right professionals, you're in the right networks, you socialize more. doors open, positions open, it's like everything comes live. But the thing is, you need to be with like-minded individuals, and that's the key driver behind the Canadian culture, is the networking part of it. Let's face it, I can ask all of you here today, If you didn't have the networking you have today, would you be where you are financially? Go to sleep with that thought tonight.

LOUIS SAVARD: I mean, that's a great point, right? That's a fantastic point. Now, Charlene, if you indulge me for a second here, let's do some time travel. Let's go back to 2016. What does Charlene tell Peter before he comes into Canada? What kind of tips does Charlene tell Peter, here's what you got to look out for?

CHARLENE TERRELL: Well, basically everything that Peter mentioned, you know, developing that network, you know, that he had the opportunity to develop through his connection with OACETT. So you have to really find out what do you need to do with your credentials, your education, and definitely be connected to some associations, memberships, even joining some mentorship programs as well. you know, seeing if you can get connected to the networks here on the ground, pre-arrival networks, I did make mention of that earlier as well, to see if you can gather all that necessary information so that when you arrive in Canada, you know, you are hitting the ground running towards success. So I would definitely advise Peter back in 2016 of those steps.

PETER BREWER: Awareness is the key feature of progress.

LOUIS SAVARD:: Absolutely. Right. Exactly. You don't know what you don't know. It's a cliche, but it's, it's, it's absolutely true. Right. That's right. Now we talked about OACETT a few times, you know, Peter mentioned, you know, how it helped him and Charlene, you mentioned, you know, you would recommend, you know, joining a professional association, you know, to understand where you got to go. Seeing how this is an OACETT podcast, I have to ask Charlene, how does OACETT supported the ACA program?

CHARLENE TERRELL: Sure. So for internationally trained, our internationally trained clients, you know, OACETT is able to provide a wealth of knowledge and information for our clients, you know, when it comes to what do they need to do for licensing, as well as providing, you know, useful information on labor market trends. where to go for things like that. So when we are looking to refer our clients to an organization, we really want to make sure that it is going to be relevant to their personal career choice. So OACETT has been really a good support for that.

LOUIS SAVARD: That's fantastic. That's good to hear. Very good to hear. Peter, I'm going to throw it right back at you and I'll let, I'll let you dive deep into it. How did OSED, you mentioned, you know, networking, but you know, what else did OSED do for you through your journey?

PETER BREWER: So I met up with, so I, actually we, I say I, but I talk about a family. So we moved to Sault Ste. Marie a few years ago, bought our first house here, and I joined the local OACETT association chapter. Gilbert Dubois and his cronies, and long story short, After the first two meetings I started participating in events and discussions started opening up. Eventually, I joined the executive committee, which led me to the MESC for member engagement. And it was only after I met with David and his team at head office that I started learning the key features of what OACETT offers students, members in general. What does OSED really stand for? Yes, it is a liability and regulated association, yes, but that's not the key driver behind the association. It teaches you to be more responsible, to think more and be more effective in what you do. It drives your professional ambitions and it also points you in the right direction when you need it. So that's what the association does for you. And the more I got into different discussions, different networks, I learned that the association helps you, not necessarily in materialistic things, but it helps you in the direction of networking. The who's, the do's, the don'ts, the where's, the why's, and stuff like that. That's the key details because effectively, We're all victims of our own demise. It's like you said, you don't know what you don't know. If you know the right people and you talk to the right people, the doors start opening. Then you find out, hey, there's a job at Rogers, there's a job at Bell, there's a position over there. If I want to change careers, I can take this one year on my back end, but I need a course. Hey, then I can talk to Daniel and find out what he's got available and the microloan makes it happen. That's the kind of details you need to know. If you don't know it, you are me, myself, and I fighting the world. And that's what OSIT helped me with, to learn the details.

LOUIS SAVARD: Peter, if you could tell OACETT two things, what would that be?

PETER BREWER: I was having that discussion with the president of OCED the other day, Michael Mooney, and I asked him, why doesn't OCED, and I understand why we are currently fighting this, but understand the scenario first. Why doesn't OCED advertise, or not advertise, but make more awareness on the IRCC website where you go through your immigration process? And the answer is simple. The RRCC website is federally regulated, so they do not favor any associations. Now, with that said, that's also the Achilles heel of international immigration. Because nobody favors anybody, or the government doesn't favor anybody, you don't know the OACETTs, you don't know the PEO, you don't know any other players. The one thing I would say, and this is the one thing I'm trying to drive actually, I'm trying to reach out to a number of these immigration consultants is to, not asking for a favor, but promote the IEP platform. Not who, the what. Because if you can promote the IEP platform to your future clients, In the beginning it means that they get into the process faster, it means that they retain a lot of their clients after they land, it means it's generating new finance for them. But that means that you need to make them aware of what they need to do. So that is That is a long, let's just say it's a Pandora's box. If you make the awareness more open, it opens up business financially, but it also opens the possibility of what's possible for the country so much faster because you don't have a three or five-year turnaround for an individual. You have a two-year turnaround. So you brought over an international person with their skills, it starts promoting within the first year for your country. It means that as of 2023, we are, I think Doug Ford said the other day, we are bringing in a million new immigrants this year. That means we've got a million more people producing and contributing to our country. Now that's mind boggling. but it comes back to the details, but yeah, that's just me rambling.

LOUIS SAVARD Peter, your answer was all about awareness. We need to know as international professionals, we need to know what's available. 

PETER BREWER: Your problem is all of that's on this side of the fence. You are here on the border in the middle. The problem is the other guy is standing on the other side of the mirror and he doesn't see anything behind the mirror because the government regulates what gets through. So unless we can get the government to make the platforms more open and say, hey, this is available. We have done all this work already. Everybody's here already. Just connect them. But that's, that's, yeah, that's unfortunately the Canadian government for you.

LOUIS SAVARD: You know what Peter, it's funny because I had this question queued up for everybody saying, Hey, we're talking about what you want to look at for OACETT, but we really touched about the roots. It needs to start at the government level, right? There needs to be a push from there. And then the associations such as Achieve, OACETT, Educational Institution like St. Lawrence College can all support that vision, right? But it has to be driven from top. It has to be made, you know, the mirror has to be broken, right? It has to turn into like a, not a French door that you open up and off you go, right?

PETER BREWER: There's so much available. There's so much possibility. Canada has got so much with the programs that both Daniel and Charlene, their backgrounds are offering. It puts Canada light years ahead of any other country I know of. Ironically enough, nobody knows about it. That's the sad part about it.

LOUIS SAVARD: Well, I'm going to put Sharlene on the spot here, just as a final touch on that, you know, what can the government do question, because you mentioned Ontario Works before and experience in there. So I'm just wondering if from your seat, from Achieve, or even personally, what do you think the provisional government can do better to help professionals succeed?

CHARLENE TERRELL: Now I'm being put on the spot. I'd have to say, you know, just going back to some pre-arrival services, like Peter made mention of, you know, knowing about the services and programs that are available, it could definitely start pre-arrival before our internationally trained professionals do land here in Canada. And I do know that there are some programs that are focused towards that, but definitely a better job of having the awareness for these individuals when they are coming into Canada to know about the different programs and services that are here to support them be successful with their journey here. It is important. I mean, internationally trained professionals coming into Canada, you know, sometimes sometimes we like to think that they don't know a lot of information, but a lot of them are coming with the information as well. So we do have to give those that are coming in with the information and prepared kudos, definitely kudos to their bravery and to the way that they've done the research, because sometimes they are coming in with a lot of information, you know, for their specific career. But definitely more awareness. And I think pre-arrival services can be implemented, you know, with support from the government so that the information will get to the people that really need it.

LOUIS SAVARD: That's great perspective. Thank you for that. Oh, I got to say for anybody listening, I hope this was informative and, you know, I hope we at least achieved the, uh, you know, filling in some of the gaps in the blanks on, on how an international educational professional could leverage all the systems available through an organization such as Achieve, uh, St. Lawrence College, uh, or OACETT as well, uh, to help them navigate their road to success. It's a long road. You know, I, you know, I. I will tell you guys, I think I'm sniffing an episode two here because we've scratched the surface, right? We really have. There's so much more we could dive into, so stay tuned. We'll see what happens there. But I want to thank you all for your time, Charlene, Peter, and Daniel. I'll leave it to you each, 30 seconds, last words.

CHARLENE TERRELL: Well, I'll just say that I'm very happy to be a part of this podcast, you know, talking about the services and programs that Achieve does provide and the Accelerating Career Advancement program that can help support internationally trained professionals with getting a leg up, getting into their career choice, you know, funding such certifications that OACETT has and that Daniel made mention of, you know, it The government has put some things in place, but definitely people need to be aware of the services that are out there to help them. So thank you once again for having me today. I really appreciate it. It was nice meeting Peter. Nice meeting Daniel, as well as you, Louis. Thank you.

LOUIS SAVARD: Daniel, any last words?

DANIEL LIAO: I really enjoyed the conversations. Louis, thanks so much for having me be a part of these discussions. I, there are a few, fewer things that make me as passionate as, you know, international students and well, just international, internationally trained professionals. So I, I think there's a lot more we can do for them. I think colleges are well positioned to play a major role. And I mean, they're the future, right, for a group in Canada. And I love the fact that they work together in all the organizations represented in this discussion to, yeah, better support and give them a leg up. Peter?

PETER BREWER: Louis, thank you very much for the opportunity and the invite. First and foremost, thank you very much, Charlene and Daniel, for your help today as well. Very, very interesting information. I wish I knew about this many years ago. Also, I want to give a big shout out to the guys from OACETT. You're like my second family as well. Thank you very much for all your time and effort, all the questions, all the stupid questions I've asked over the years. I'm very happy in the fact that this subject is being talked about. It's being broadcasted better. Let's just say it's like a, I don't want to use the word wish come true, but it's good to talk about it and actually you get a sense of achievement in the back of your mind. It's been six years. It's been a hard six years, I'll tell you that. But if you ask me whether I will do it again tomorrow in a heartbeat, I achieved a lot more. I changed, quite literally changed my My profession, I'll never forget my ex boss one day told me, you have to reinvent yourself to become a better version of yourself. And he couldn't be more right is the words I'll use, because you learn some things about yourself that you never knew you could do. Immigration helped me a lot, break the barriers. Yeah, let's just say you learn a lot. Coming from a different country, you always think at the end of the tunnel, there's something better. There's definitely something better I can offer my family. And it's only after the whole immigration process that you realize and you achieve your goal and you think to yourself at last, now let me see how I can take that data and push it backwards so that others can also learn from it, even if they learn something out of it, not even all of it. That is a major bonus and it's our two cents of giving back what's good. Thank you very much again.

LOUIS SAVARD: Absolutely. It's me to thank all three of you for taking the time to speak with me today. It's been extremely valuable and again, I can't say it enough. Thank you for this amazing conversation. Thank you. Thank you. So, as always, I want to thank our listeners for joining us. And remember, if you're interested in learning more about today's topic, or if you have a topic you would like us to feature in a future podcast, please email us at Tech Takes at oaset.org.

That's , T-E-C-H-T-A-K-E-S at OACETT, O-A-C-E-T-T dot org.

Till next time. Bye for now.