In this episode of Tech Takes, host Louis Savard explores Canada's effort to provide low-carbon baseload power to remote areas and heavy industry through the development and design of small modular reactors (SMRs) and micromodular reactors (MMRs). The episode discusses the benefits and limitations of nuclear power, as well as the design of reactors and restrictions on the use of technology. Joining Louis are Lawrence Robitaille, a Technical Advisor in New Technologies at Langcore Construction Corporation, and Jos Denning, President and CEO at Global First Power. Lawrence and Jos share their extensive experience in the nuclear industry and provide insights into the pioneering approach of SMRs and MMRs.
Have a topic you’d like to discuss or comments about the episode? Reach us at techtakes@oacett.org
In this episode of Tech Takes, host Louis Savard explores Canada's effort to provide low-carbon baseload power to remote areas and heavy industry through the development and design of small modular reactors (SMRs) and micromodular reactors (MMRs). The episode discusses the benefits and limitations of nuclear power, as well as the design of reactors and restrictions on the use of technology. Joining Louis are Lawrence Robitaille, a Technical Advisor in New Technologies at Langcore Construction Corporation, and Jos Denning, President and CEO at Global First Power. Lawrence and Jos share their extensive experience in the nuclear industry and provide insights into the pioneering approach of SMRs and MMRs.
Have a topic you’d like to discuss or comments about the episode? Reach us at techtakes@oacett.org
[Start of recorded material 00:00:00]
David Terlizzi: [00:00:09] This is Tech Takes. A podcast that explores the many facets of the engineering and applied science profession. It is brought to you by OACETT, the Ontario Association of Certified Engineering Technicians and Technologists.
Louis Savard: [00:00:24]Hi, I'm Louis Savard and welcome to Tech Takes. In a world focused on reducing carbon emissions, nuclear power seems like a good option. Right here in Canada, there's a need to develop a low carbon baseload power to remote off-grid communities, mines and heavy industry. However, building nuclear reactors for nuclear power plants has stalled.
This episode of Tech Takes will explore Canada's effort to provide these options in a safe and reliable manner. [00:00:54] One option to achieve this goal is through the development and design of small modular reactors, or SMRs, and micro modular reactors, or MMRs, a pioneering approach that provides a more flexible option to nuclear power projects.
This podcast episode will also address the design of reactors, restrictions to the use of nuclear technology, limitations of nuclear power, benefits [00:01:24] and dangers of nuclear power. Joining me to discuss this important topic is Laurence Robitaille, C.E.T., Technical Advisor in New Technologies at Langcore Construction Corporation. And Jos Diening, President and CEO at Global First Power.
Laurence, an OACEET certified engineering technologist, has over 35 years of experience in CANDU nuclear technology, [00:01:54] working in special safety systems and emergency response from Pickering, Darlington and Chalk River.
Jos is a professional engineer with 17 years of experience in the nuclear industry. Before he started working at Global First Power, he was a project director at Ontario Power Generation accountable for the major overhaul and the generator rewind of the Darlington generator. Lawrence, Jos, [00:02:24] welcome to Tech Takes.
Jos Diening: [00:02:27] Thanks so much for having me. Looking forward to the discussion.
Laurence Robitaille: [00:02:32] Thanks for having me, Louis.
Louis Savard: [00:02:34] It's a great pleasure to have you both on this show. Now, let's get right into it. Laurence, I know many people are familiar with what nuclear technology is, or at least the concept of nuclear. But for those who know very little, can you give us a quick 30,000 foot overview of what that is?
Laurence Robitaille: [00:03:00] Well, Louis, nuclear energy is the most abundant source of energy in our universe. And over the last seven years, we've managed to harness it and to produce thermal energy and electricity. Here in Ontario, the collaboration between the British and ourselves, basically, during the war times, like just from the early 40s, we managed to produce a reactor.
The first control reactor in the world was called ZEEP. And that reactor was [00:03:30] unique compared to all the other reactors because we didn't really have reactors. We had nuclear piles, those were there to prove the concept. But the ZEEP reactor was much more than just a pile. It was an actual control reactor that allowed us to do research.
And eventually, we develop the CANDU reactor from that type of research, which Chalk River was involved in much more research over the years, like from the 40s, into the 50s. [00:04:00] And by 1960s, well, we have produced our first CANDU reactor.
Louis Savard: [00:04:09] That's interesting. And what I find interesting too, is you opened it by saying nuclear energy is the most abundant form of energy. And I got to tell you, I have a lot of water running through turbines in my mind before I think of nuclear energy.
So thanks for that. Seeing how it is, as you say, the most abundant nuclear energy out there are powering each other, I apologize. How many of these nuclear facilities [00:04:39] do we have in Ontario? And comparatively, how much power does it provide to Ontario?
Laurence Robitaille: [00:04:47] Well, Ontario Hydro started construction back in 1962, and the first CANDU was an experimental one. It was a cooperation effort between AECL and Ontario Hydro. Twenty-two reactors were constructed between 1962 and 1993. And most of those reactors are still running. Again, when I say most, about 60% of them. But during the peak times in 1988, 60% of the grid’s power was produced by nuclear power. [00:05:17] And over the years, we still produce approximately in the upper 50s.
So the majority of the power is still produced here with nuclear power in Ontario. And, as well, we ranked number six in the world with regards to the largest producer of nuclear energy in the world. So number six in the world and about just a little less than 60% we still produce with nuclear power here.
Louis Savard: [00:05:43] Now, I got to tell you, that number did not come to mind at all. In my mind, I have Darlington, Chalk River, that’s two. If we're getting 10% of the power grid as nuclear, I thought we were doing good, but just around 60s is actually amazing to me. So that’s very interesting. Jos, piggybacking on what Laurence just said about 60% energy, how does that energy benefit Ontario? [00:06:13] And coming with that, what kind of limitations and concerns do we have with nuclear power?
Jos Diening: [00:06:19]Yeah, thanks, Louie. And when we look at this kind of renaissance and nuclear, the big driver around that is climate change. And so the power that's produced a nuclear power plants, greenhouse gas free, clean energy. So if you look at the IESO or the independent electrical system operators, they determine the mix of electricity that we generate in Ontario.
So to maintain 60% nuclear, we need another 18,000 megawatts of generation. And so that's equivalent to about five Darlington plants. [00:06:49] And that really allows us to decarbonize our economy, and get to that net zero economy.
And so really, nuclear is just part of the mix, renewables, wind, solar are all part of it. But having reliable clean baseload generation really enables those other renewables to be part of the mix. And some of the concerns that come with nuclear projects is, first of all, the cost. And traditional big nuclear power plants [00:07:19] are delayed and over budget.
But having worked at Ontario Power Generation and Darlington refurbishment is a mega project that the first unit was completed on time and on budget. And so we've taken the learnings from that, and we're incorporating that into our planning for our next projects. The other major item around nuclear is the waste.
And so yes, when you're generating electricity, you do generate nuclear waste. [00:07:49] But we have rigorous systems in place to both track that and store it in very safe ways. And so with the nuclear power, we know where our waste is, and then that may not be the case when we look at other potential ways to generate electricity.
Louis Savard: [00:08:06]Great. Now, I'm going to follow up with a question here. You mentioned clean energy, nuclear is a clean source of energy, zero emission energy. How do you compare that against hydroelectric? Now understanding there's other variations of hydro electrics in terms of river patterns and reservoir buildings and all of that stuff. But in the end, when they're operating, would they not be comparable in terms of zero carbon zero carbon? [00:08:36] Or am I missing something here?
Jos Diening: [00:08:38]No, no, absolutely. Hydroelectric dams are the cleanest type of energy or one of the cleanest types of energy around. But when we look at the capacity that's available to build, we’re running out of streams and we're running into rivers to be able to build new plants on. There are some developments up in Northern Ontario that the province is looking at, but there's not enough potential plants to be able to provide enough electricity to decarbonize the economy.
Louis Savard: [00:09:07] Right. So it's a footprint equation basically right. You produce more power with a smaller footprint without requiring that St. Laurence River running in your backyard everywhere kind of thing?
Jos Diening: [00:09:19]Yeah. And to build hydro you need to flood lands and so they're running out of places where we can have enough running water to actually build economical hydro.
Louis Savard: [00:09:31] Thanks for that. Laurence, I want to come back to you. I've heard a term that's kind of piqued my interest. It's called defence in depth. And I'm wondering if you can enlighten me on what defence in depth means in a nuclear power plant and what does it protect us against?
Laurence Robitaille: [00:09:51]OK, well in the nuclear industry, defence in depth is a principle that permeates the culture. And the culture that exists in the nuclear industry is that of safety. And the defence in depth is actually layers of protection. Those layers are physical layers as well as procedural layers. So they have highly trained staff that follow procedures to ensure that everything's done safely. And then as well, right from the design to the decommissioning [00:10:21] of the plant, that safety is embedded into their design with regards to physical barriers. And as well, there's systems upon systems.
So triplicated safety systems to protect the reactor. And the key thing that we're looking at is the three C's. So that's a controlling, cooling and containing. Those three C's are critical to the safety. And defence in depth [00:10:51] is what sort of like the envelope, the procedures and actual design and the system. So they're all sort of tied together.
Louis Savard: [00:11:01] OK, those three Cs, if you had to rank them, in order of importance, is one more important than the other? Or are they sort of all on par? Just for our listeners, if you had to pick one, which one would you really focus on?
Laurence Robitaille: [00:11:17]Well, I got to say that the three C's, the idea is to keep it cool. So in in the type of design reactors, the CANDU reactor is a pressurized water reactor. But again, it's a heavy water pressurized water reactor. So it's unique in that way, and the fuel has to be kept cool. And so all pressurized water reactors have to keep their fuel cool. So even after they shut down, [00:11:47] that fuel has to be kept cool.
So even when it goes to the fuel bay, that fuel has come out of the reactor, but it still has to be kept cool. And until the decay is there, the fuel gets cool enough, which takes time. So it sits in a fuel bay for quite a long time. And then it moves into, you know, the whole fuel cycle is probably a separate program in itself because the fuel cycle is a very important part of how the nuclear industry runs.
And again, Jos had mentioned that with regards to the fuel, [00:12:17] it's not a nuclear waste. I know we put it in the ground, but it's an asset. It’s something that's very important that when the fuel comes out of the reactors, only half a percent of that potential energy has been used, and then it goes into storage.
And in the future, that's going to be a very valuable asset to run for thousands of years. So keep in mind, that stuff we put in the ground, that's the future. [00:12:47] And we do it safely, by the way, it's the very safe process. We do everything we possibly can to make sure that those assets are protected.
Louis Savard: [00:12:57]Wow, that's a good line. I like that. What we're putting in the ground is the future. I like that. Jos, I just don't want to go to you very quickly on the same question about the three C's in your mind, cooling the most important?
Jos Diening: [00:13:11]No, no, I completely agree with Laurence on that one. Keeping the fuel cool is of utmost important.
Louis Savard: [00:13:18] Perfect. Now, Laurence, I’ll come right back to you. On the subject of safety, what would you say are the appropriate safety systems in place to protect people and the environment in Ontario? And what in your view do you think we need to change? And Jos, think about that one, I'll come back to you with that one as well?
Laurence Robitaille: [00:13:41] Well, right now, Louis, our safety systems in the CANDU reactors are made up of triplicated – we have an Sts1 as an example. It's our primary shutdown system. It's made up of triplicated safety systems. So that shutdown system one will shut the reactor down.
But even, that we have a shutdown system number two, so we have Sts1 and Sts2. So those systems will take the reactor to a safe state. And if in the event, we had a major event, where [00:14:11] a major earthquake or something catastrophic, we have other backup systems on top of that. So we have an emergency core injection, so we can essentially keep that that reactor cool with other systems.
So there's systems upon systems upon systems. It's a very complicated process. But it's done safely and we have successfully done that for the life of the reactors here in Ontario. That's where the new design when it comes to Jos’s new reactors, [00:14:41] that’s a completely different philosophy. How that's coming online is from the design perspective.
There's not going to be any cooling water for that fuel. A fuel is, how do you say it? Once the system shuts down, it doesn't require water, which in itself makes a whole different scenario. In other words, this safety factor has just gone right through the roof. Like, there's a huge difference in design from a CANDU reactor [00:15:11] to what Jos is proposing to, or what they're going to put in up in Chalk River.
I mean, that MMR is far. Again, I probably get criticized for saying that it is far safer. But the reality is, it's a vast difference. I mean, you talk about defence in depth, right at the design of the reactor, they've taken all these things in consideration. So just my opinion.
Jos Diening: [00:15:37]Yeah, and so I'm happy to add a little to that, too. And when you look at CANDU plants, run extremely safe, designed safe and operated safe in our province. But they were designed in the 60s and 70s, and built in the 70s and 80s. So, before computers were really a big thing, right?
So when you look at the next generation of reactor, which Global First Power’s working on, we're able to incorporate all that learnings, all that operational experience and all that advancement of technology [00:16:07] into our reactor. And so we use the term inherently safe.
So in our reactor, there's no credited operator action required to ensure that the core stays safe. And so if the reactor gets too hot, the reactivity comes down, and it automatically cools itself back off. And so it's called a negative temperature coefficient. And it's one of these really cool advances in technology that we've designed into our plant. [00:16:37]
And I'll just add one more thing. A traditional grid scale CANDU plant, the fuel’s water cooled. So our reactors called a high temperature gas reactor. So our main coolant is helium. And so the neat thing too, is if we stopped circulating the helium, the reactor by design will shut off. So it's really there's these inherent safety systems that are designed into the plant. And then we have traditional safety systems too [00:17:07] that can shut it off, as well.
Louis Savard: [00:17:10]Now, I just made a note of helium. I want to come back to that in a little bit. But for now, what we're talking about what I'm assuming is SMRs and MMRs. This is sort of the hot topic that we're getting into now, right, is the new generation, next gen of nuclear.
So I'm very interested in learning more about them and some of our own Ontario's nuclear science, as I'm sure our listeners are just as well. [00:17:40] So let me ask you this very plainly. What are SMRs and NMRs? And how do they work? And why is this nuclear technology is so needed?
Jos Diening: [00:17:51]That's a really good question, Louis. So when we step back from the 30,000 foot level, to generate electricity, really, you need a heat source to boil water, the water turns to steam, the steam turns the turbine, which is connected to a generator, and the generator generates electricity. So in a nuclear power plant, we use fission to generate heat. And so that's the high level how we generate electricity.
So when we get into small modular reactors, it's really the [00:18:21] [unintelligible 00:18:22]. So they're much smaller than a traditional grid scale. They're modular. And what that means is that they're built in smaller components in a manufacturing facility. And so what that allows us to do is it allows us to build the actual components in a controlled shop type environment.
And then when you get to the construction site, you're just putting these different pieces together, these different modules together. [00:18:52] And so it simplifies the infield construction, and allows us to build high quality plants on a smaller scale. So back to some of the advantages is yeah, it's really around the modular. So it's very portable.
And so for Global First Power, when we look at what areas or what places we want to go after we do a demonstration in Chalk River, it's really around remote communities that currently rely on diesel [00:19:22] generators to further electricity. So we can ship up our modules to the site, we can put them together and have a real reliable plant to provide clean energy for an extended period of time.
Louis Savard: [00:19:37] Well, that sounds almost like a no brainer. But I do want to go back to helium, as I said that wanted earlier. And maybe you can shed some light on this for me. I vividly remember a year or two, maybe three ago, where I even had friends that couldn't get helium balloons for their kid’s birthday party because there was a shortage. Any thought placed behind that is seeing how you mentioned it was sort of the cooling mechanism for these reactors?
Jos Diening: [00:20:07]Yeah, so there are shortages, and I can't speak specifically on the supply chain side. But when it comes to our reactor, it's not a significant amount of helium that's required. And so in that helium, it stays within the vessel. And so once we get that initial charge of helium, it's not like we're constantly refilling it day in and day out.
So, it's an inert gas, it has very good heat transportability, [00:20:37] and it’s inert. So you don't have to deal with it getting irradiated to the same extent as some other type of heat transport materials.
Louis Savard: [00:20:46]That's fantastic. Listen, I'm glad I'm not the only one that has the trouble of saying that word. I am happy to see that. So basically, this same concept as the AC in your car, right? That’s it. You buy the car, it’s filled, it’s charged. Unless there's a hole or a leak, you really never have to touch it for the lifecycle of your vehicle. Perfect.
Let's keep you in the hot seat here because this is quite interesting. Chalk River Laboratories, could you tell us in our listeners, [00:21:16] why you chose that for the site for your MMR demonstrations? And are there any other projects in the licensing process?
Jos Diening: [00:21:24]Yeah, so Chalk River, and Laurence talked a little bit about the start, but it's really the birthplace of the CANDU reactor and a really a centre of excellence for nuclear research for the country of Canada. And so what better place would there be for us to do our first of a kind the world's first micro modular reactor, then in that same place and be part of that history there.
And so Chalk River had an invitation process where multiple technologies could apply to [00:21:54] site a reactor there. And so we entered that process back in 2019. And we are now working through the design, getting ready to submit our license to prepare site to our regulator, and then start construction in the coming years right at Chalk River. And so some of the other advantages of being in Chalk River is the world renowned research facilities that are close by.
So having those facilities close by to do analysis on the things that we're doing is really helpful for our overall demonstration project. [00:22:24] So it's a great place geographically. They've got a lot of resources for us there as well. And it really connects us back to the history of the nuclear industry in Canada.
Louis Savard: [00:22:35]Yeah, that’s fantastic. I had the privilege of getting a site tour a few years ago. And then at the end of last year, we took some of our OACETT members over there for a meeting and had a tour of the site. And it's an impressive site with all the decommissioning they're doing and repurposing and the [00:22:55] big timber buildings. It's amazing what they're doing.
So I'm going to let you take a breather, Jos. I’m going to switch over to Laurence for a second here. Laurence, are there any other MMRs or micro modular reactors functioning in the world?
Laurence Robitaille: [00:23:14] Not MMRs, but there’s plenty of very small SMRs. I guess we don't really call them SMRs. But if you think of a 45-gallon drum, is the size of the reactor. That's basically what you'd have in a nuclear submarine or an aircraft carrier. I mean, this is something where there's literally thousands of them in the world. And it has been done.
But again, they are the type of technology that [00:23:44] I don't think we want to put all around the world. And the MMR that’s coming to Chalk River is vastly different to that technology. So is there anything like what's coming to Chalk River? I don't think so.
Louis Savard: [00:24:00] Another first, why not? Keep it going.
Laurence Robitaille: [00:24:03] Absolutely.
Louis Savard: [00:24:04] Let’s go back, Jos, on that note. Jos, if you could tell us what would the major difference is going to be between the SMR or MMR that's planned for Chalk River compared to the SMR looking to be built at Darlington?
Jos Diening: [00:24:22] Yeah, so the SMR that's going to be built at Darlington is a grid scale SMR. So it's much bigger, and so it's about 300 megawatts electrical and compared to our MMR, which is about five megawatts electrical. And so they're really different markets.
So the MMR in Darlington will be connected to the grid, and we'll be providing power to the grid, where the MMR designs really for micro grid or off grid applications. And [00:24:52] so that could be mines remote communities in the north, or other areas that now currently rely on diesel generation. So really, it's around size and target market.
And I talk a lot about the electricity. But when it comes to our MMR, a lot of communities would also use the heat. And so you can use the hot water that comes off of our plant to heat full towns. So even in Chalk River, we're providing a certain amount of electricity, [00:25:22] but we're also providing a significant amount of heat in the form of hot water to heat the campus during the winter months.
Louis Savard: [00:25:30] So nothing wasted.
Jos Diening: [00:25:32]We want to capture every joule of energy and put it to good use.
Louis Savard: [00:25:36] That’s perfect. Now, let me throw a little bit of a curveball here because you mentioned the micro grids and then the remote communities, things like that. But what if we take that a step further and in your opinion, and then Laurence, I'll give you a chance to provide your opinion as well on this one, is there a place for decentralized power generation?
Meaning you're putting 300 megawatts at Darlington, that's sort of [00:26:06] centralizing it and then distributing it using the grid, right? With urban sprawl of every community or every municipality, is there a case we made to put 10 30-megawatts or 30 10-megawatts around the province instead of one centralized or relying on infrastructure to transport?
Jos Diening: [00:26:28]So with the caveat, I'm not an expert in transmission and grid stability.
Louis Savard: [00:26:32] Absolutely.
Jos Diening: [00:26:33] But for me, there's economy scales of having big plants that generate large amounts of electricity. And so they can do it cheaper per kilowatt. But I think when it comes to grid stability and managing peaks, there's a place for battery storage, pumped storage, wind and solar.
And those are smaller amounts of generation that we can put throughout all of Ontario to support the different parts of the grid when it comes to grid stability. But to me, having [00:27:03] reliable large amounts of baseload electricity is a positive for the economics of our electricity system
Louis Savard: [00:27:12] Laurence, in agreement?
Laurence Robitaille: [00:27:17] Halfway. I have to say that the grid stability would be massively increased by having basically MMRs distributed across the country. So if you can imagine, how do you say it, some major environmental events, like say you had large fires somewhere, I don't know if you've ever heard of this sort of thing happening. But if you started having large fires, and they were abundant through those areas, it could affect the stability of the grid.
I mean, right now, they're out west. [00:27:47] But if we were to have fires closer here in the east, we have a lot of forests, that would actually damage the transmission infrastructure, as well, ice storms. I don't know if you've ever seen the ice storms take place.
I mean, the infrastructure is damaged, when that section falls down, we're stranding all that power that's sitting there at the large facilities. And if we had that distribution across the province, we have much more stability. [00:28:17] So again, I feel a little more on the side that the MMRs are the future for stability. That's just my opinion again.
Louis Savard: [00:28:22] So what I'm hearing is there's almost a consensus of, we need a centralized cost effective large power distribution, and then some kind of storage solution that sort of decentralized should something happen to the main grid, then there's some sort of backup solutions that can pick up the slack while you deal with the situation. So how that gets achieved is up for discussion. Right, perfect.
[00:28:52] Laurence, we’re going to keep with you on this one because you talked about defence in depth first. But Jos, we’ll come back to you and give you a chance to give your point of view on this one. So the MMR that's coming to Chalk River, is that an improvement to the defence in depth of pressurized water reactor or PWR technology that you talked about earlier, Laurence? And how would that be achieved?
Laurence Robitaille: [00:29:18]Well, again, I think Jos did cover it earlier. The defence in depth is right at the design. So the Pressurized Water Reactor requires cooling. And the MMR is not going to require that. So I mean, you've sort of applied defence in depth right at the design, and you've used the KISS principle to actually create something that doesn't require the same human resources.
So if you had a massive pandemic somewhere, you'd still be able to maintain that reactor and operate it during the pandemic. I mean, if you had a pandemic [00:29:48] and no one was available to work in a large facility, you might be in trouble there. You'd have to shut her down and put her in a safe state. And then that puts the rest of the province in a situation where it's not very good. Not to say that we'd ever get a pandemic.
Louis Savard: [00:30:05] Absolutely not. Jos, if you wanted to add to that, maybe I'd like your point of view or expertise in the design and build phase, not the onsite, but the actual in the shop. How is that defence in depth pulled in and take into consideration at that level to make these from what I'm hearing, I'll use the word loosely, but much more safer?
Jos Diening: [00:30:33]Yeah, and so Ontario has built a very strong supply chain in the nuclear space. And so there’s rigorous quality requirements that ensure that a part that's going in a nuclear plant will meet all the requirements.
And then so there's inspection and test plans, there's destructive testing, there's all sorts of things that ensure that by the time the part gets to the plant to be installed, it meets the rigorous requirements that are required. [00:31:03] So, a valve that's an inch big could have three inches worth of paperwork showing that it’s ready to do its job within the nuclear power plants.
Sorry, I just want to touch on something else around the defence in depth is in our micro modular reactor, it's designed by a company called Ultra Safe Nuclear Corporation. And their differentiator is around the fuel. So a traditional nuclear power plant has a containment structure, it's a meter, [00:31:33] meter and a half or two meters concrete walls that are strong, that ensure that you have a containment of the nuclear reaction.
And so the MMR in Chalk River were actually containing the fissile material right at the source, right in the fuel. And so you have a kernel of uranium, and it's coated in silicon oxides, which provide a containment structure. So it's almost like little pressure vessels around that small kernel uranium. [00:32:03] And then they have something that's called FCM.
So fully microencapsulated ceramic fuel. And so it's 3 printed silicone dioxides and it's a little container. And so the TRISUL fuel, which is already really, really safe, sits inside this little FCM container and the fissile material is contained at source. And so when you think of defence in depth, we're containing all of the fissile material in the reactor within that pellet [00:32:33] right at the source of the fuel. So it's a real step forward in technology, and it allows us to really have that defence in depth in how we operate our reactors.
Louis Savard: [00:32:45]That’s fantastic. Pardon the explanation, but it's a bean, in a shell, in a can. So that's the visual that I have, right? It's fantastic. I don't know about anybody else, but it makes me feel – if not a lot more, at least slightly more comfortable with new tech.
When we talk about new tech and you involve nuclear, then the first thing people think of is the disasters that we've seen across the world. Oh my god, something new, have they thought about all this stuff? [00:33:15] And obviously, there's been a lot of thought behind it. So that's really good to hear.
Jos Diening: [00:33:21]Yeah, and the rigor around this too is USNC or Ultra Safe Nuclear has designed this but now they're going to test it. So they're going to test and prove that this barrier is in place before we start operating our plant at Chalk River. So it's not just the analysis side, it's you need to prove it in real life as well.
Louis Savard: [00:33:41] All right. Now a little bit of a different type of question for you, Jos. Everybody I think, I hope, has heard about the Elon Musk Giga factories and we're going to pump these electric cars out into the world. Can we expect Ultra Safe Nuclear Corp to do the same?
Jos Diening: [00:33:59]Absolutely. And so one of the advantages of modulars is you can make an assembly line. So a reactor manufacturing facility is in the future for Ultra Safe.
Louis Savard: [00:34:12]Awesome. Well, it’s going to be needed. I'm getting excited about it. I can hear in your voices you’re absolutely excited about it. So somebody has to do it, right, might as well be them. Laurence, quick question for you here because we talked about how the current technology has been around since the 60s, 70s, implemented 80s, things, like that. And now we're talking about 50-60 years later, [00:34:42] we have this new type of technology. How fast is SMR technology evolving?
Laurence Robitaille: [00:34:52]I think it's evolving very fast. I think that what's happening in that area with regards to us SMRs, there's so many things happening so fast that I honestly believe that there's only going to be a few successful people. Even though they're all coming up and racing to get that technology to market, I think that there's only going to be a few that are going to meet the muster type thing, hit the right marks.
And I think that [00:35:22] Global First Power and this combination, I think is a winner. And I'm not going to name the other competitors. But I really do believe that, as you say, if you're putting safety first and the public number one, then you're going to get there. And I've heard plenty of arguments with regards to cost. They say, “Whoa, it's just way too much. That'd be ridiculous. The cost of the fuel, the cost.” And the argument is it's going to cost too much, and it's not going to be profitable. [00:35:52] So if your only objective is profit, you shouldn't be in business. Just my opinion.
Louis Savard: [00:35:58]Great. I mean, let's carry on with that train of thought then. We can think back to not so long ago, a few years, maybe 10 at the most. The electric vehicle was sort of an idea. And a few companies said, “We're going to do it.” And it basically triggered a race, a race to finish. Who's going to prevail? And I think we've all seen Elon Musk and Tesla sort of prevailed, keep pushing forward and come out on top for a bit. [00:36:28]
So the question I have for both of you, and I’ll let you guys rock, paper, scissors who wants to go first. Is it fair to say that we're in sort of that type of race between companies right now as to who is going to finish a crossing line or the finish line first, in terms of the next thing in nuclear?
Jos Diening: [00:36:48]Absolutely, I think when you look at technology companies, I think there's probably close to 100 different technologies in the SMR race. And as we progress through design and development, you'll see that some will lead the way and then others will drop off. And then when we look at the Canadian market, in the MMR space, Ultra Safe Nuclear and GFP is the only company that has a license in with the regulator now. So we're leading the race, and we want to be first.
Louis Savard: [00:37:19] Alright, and for our listeners, just for the record, I did witness it and Jos did come out with scissors and Laurence had paper. So Jos definitely won, hence, why he took the question. Jos, Laurence, any final words? Laurence, we'll go with you first.
Laurence Robitaille: [00:37:42]Well, it's an exciting time. And I look forward to seeing the results of all this hard work. And I think that it's been long overdue to revamp the nuclear industry with technology that is safer and reliable. And something that can, how do you say it, increased the reliability of actually the grids themselves, and the future of sustainability with regards to clean energy.
Jos Diening: [00:38:11]Yeah, and thanks so much for having me today, Louis. In your intro, you talked about how the nuclear industry is stalling a bit. And having been there for 17 years, I think it's the opposite. I think that we're expanding and we're accelerating. And the need to solve the climate change problem is allowing this nuclear industry to really do good things.
So I think it's accelerating. And I think you're just going to see more and more of this type of power be part of our grid. So thanks again for having me.
Louis Savard: [00:38:41]Oh, thank you for being here. And I guess that's exactly what we're going to do. I guess is we'll wait and see what happens, but it's exciting. It's exciting nonetheless. Jos and Laurence, thank you again. It's been an absolute pleasure to have this interesting and informative conversation with you.
I know, I've learned a lot about nuclear power technologies and everything that surrounds that. I'm sure our listeners have as well. I look forward to seeing what happens with this technology, [00:39:11] how it may play the role that we hope it needs to play generating power. but also the climate change angle is I think, something that we can't lose sight of. So again, thank you for a great discussion.
Laurence Robitaille: [00:39:27] Thanks, Louis.
Louis Savard: [00:39:28]So as always, I want to thank our listeners for joining us. And remember, if you're interested in learning more about today's topic, or if you have a topic you would like us to feature at a future podcast, please email us at the techtakes@oacett.org. That's Tech Takes, t-e-c-h-t-a-k-e-s@o-a-c-e-t-t.org. Till next time. Bye for now.
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